Would you have called a balk?

[BigUmp56]

I did a varsity game tonight and for the first time I had a pitcher straddle the rubber and lean in to take his signs in a high school game. Of course the opposing coach immediately wanted a balk called since we had an R1 and an R2. I know that technically under 6.1 this is a balk. My question to you is would you have called it. Under OBR it's just a "don't do that."


Tim.

[justanotherblue]

As long as he isn't quick pitching, let it alone. The intent of the rule is to keep the pitcher from quick pitching. It's an argument no matter what you do.

[UmpJM]

Tim,

Once when I was writing an article on (non-) balks, I asked Carl Childress a similar question. His response was along the lines of (paraphrasing here...)

"Well, it is, but it isn't (a balk under FED rules). I've never called it & I've never seen it called. It's kind of a 'faux' balk."

With consideration to the caveats offered by justanotherblue, I wouldn't call it either.

JM

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

It is not technically specified as a balk in 6.1. How can you balk just standing still looking in at the catcher straddling the rubber? Did he simulate a pitching motion? Wait until he steps on before you balk if the pitcher does anything wrong. Quick pitch, illegal move, etc. If you want to tell the pitcher to take his signs on the rubber, feel free.

Technically, it is a balk if runners are on base. That said, I'm not calling it.

FED 6.1 [clipped] He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate.

PENTALTY: The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

It is not technically specified as a balk in 6.1. How can you balk just standing still looking in at the catcher straddling the rubber? Did he simulate a pitching motion? Wait until he steps on before you balk if the pitcher does anything wrong. Quick pitch, illegal move, etc. If you want to tell the pitcher to take his signs on the rubber, feel free.

Can you explain to me why it's not a balk under 6.1? I agree wholeheartedly with not calling it, but I wonder why you feels it's not a balk.


Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

So if it is a balk, why aren't you calling it?

There are a myriad of balks under FED rules that are called either infrequently or not at all. Do you call the "gorilla arm swing."


Tim.

[DG]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Technically, it is a balk if runners are on base. That said, I'm not calling it.

FED 6.1 [clipped] He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate.

PENALTY: The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

Where is the illegal pitch?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by DG

Where is the illegal pitch?

Doesn't the penalty phase at the end of 6.3 encompass all of 6.1? The penalty addresses not only an illegal pitch, but also an illegal act as spelled out in 6.1 through 3.


Tim.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Where does it specifically say it is a balk to take signs from the catcher with the pivot foot not contacting the rubber?

FED 6.1 He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate. So if it is a balk, why aren't you calling it?

I don't know how to make it any plainer for you. The rule states that "He (the pitcher) shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate."

The penalty for not doing so is an illegal pitch if there are no runners on base or a balk if there are runners.

[DG]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Doesn't the penalty phase at the end of 6.3 encompass all of 6.1? The penalty addresses not only an illegal pitch, but also an illegal act as spelled out in 6.1 through 3.


Tim.

Carl thinks so. See item 378 in 2006 BRD. In OBR it's a "don't do that" pitching infraction. However, I still wonder, since the penalty is applied following an illegal pitch and if he is just taking the sign without his pivot foot on the rubber there is no illegal pitch, yet. Is it an illegal pitch to just take a sign? He hasn't pitched.

Anyway, regardless of ruling I have never seen this called in FED and have never had a coach argue for a balk to be called.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by DG

Carl thinks so. See item 378 in 2006 BRD. In OBR it's a "don't do that" pitching infraction. However, I still wonder, since the penalty is applied following an illegal pitch and if he is just taking the sign without his pivot foot on the rubber there is no illegal pitch, yet. Is it an illegal pitch to just take a sign? He hasn't pitched.

Anyway, regardless of ruling I have never seen this called in FED and have never had a coach argue for a balk to be called.

Tonight was the first time I've seen it argued for as well. I think the manager was on edge after I balked his pitcher for turning his shoulder after coming set. He was just fishing for a call.


Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Do you call a balk if the pitchers set with his hands held too high?

If you're asking about a pitcher coming set with his glove above his chin, no, it's not something usually called here. And that was the point I was trying to make to you when I asked about the "gorilla arm." There are items that we could call a balk and don't. I believe my situation tonight was one of those times.


Tim.

[ozzy6900]

I am posting to the original quote of Tim so we can get back on track here.

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I did a varsity game tonight and for the first time I had a pitcher straddle the rubber and lean in to take his signs in a high school game. Of course the opposing coach immediately wanted a balk called since we had an R1 and an R2. I know that technically under 6.1 this is a balk. My question to you is would you have called it. Under OBR it's just a "don't do that."

Tim.

Let's start with the FED 6-1-1 portion that deals with the question.....

FED 6-1
ART. 1 ... The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or the set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate.

****************************************

Now we will proceed to the PENALTY at the end of FED ART 3....

FED 6-1-3

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

****************************************

Now to answer some of the questions posted to the thread (not you Tim, I know that you know the rules here). FED 6-1-3 PENALTY is the penalty for violations of any of pitching rules in FED 6-1 ART 1, 2 & 3 PERIOD!
People, please don't try to read into anything further, this is the penalty for the first 3 Articles of FED 6!

Also, I looked into the FED Casebook (sometimes I wonder why they even bother printing it) and they speak ad-nausium of F1 taking signs but alas, it seems that the FED assumes in each case that F1 is in proper contact with the rubber. Why should they assume otherwise? All the FED coaches properly instruct their players with the proper procedures of the FED, right?

So Steve, back to you. We are in agreement that in FED, if F1 is taking his sign off the rubber is indeed a balk! We (because of past discussions) also agree that it is a frivolous balk call and that OBR is correct in calling it a "don't do that!".

Now after all that, Steve, I'll answer your question: "Would I have called it?". My answer to you and the opposing coach is simple - I have no idea when F1 is in fact taking his sign! F1 can be standing there and F2 can be flexing his fingers for all I know (or care). Just as long as F1 does not Quick Pitch, there will not be a problem. Now I'll tell you this, if a coach complains to me once, both F1's from that point had better be aware that I and my partner will be watching the rest of the game. If F2 so much as flinches with F1 straddling the rubber, we will balk the hell out of F1 (and I've done it in several Varsity and sub-varsity games in the past).

Regards

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

It is not technically specified as a balk in 6.1. How can you balk just standing still looking in at the catcher straddling the rubber? Did he simulate a pitching motion? Wait until he steps on before you balk if the pitcher does anything wrong. Quick pitch, illegal move, etc. If you want to tell the pitcher to take his signs on the rubber, feel free.

It's been on the FED test before -- and the answer is that it's a balk (with runners on base). I've seen it called. I've never called it.

I think the FED's reasoning is that if F1 is looking in for the signs, he's acting like he is on the rubber. This influences the base runner's lead, and gives F1 some additional leeway that he wouldn't have if he were on the rubber. This is "too much" of an advantage for F1, so it needs to be penalized.

For what it's worth, in the house league where I do some games, at the 13-14 level we are instructed to give one balk warning per pitcher. I have no problem calling time and going to the mound and explaining what they did wrong and how to do it right. The pitchers and the coaches thank me for it. We have more and more younger kids these days who have no clue about the mechanics of pitching. The coaches are just as ill informed. The fact of the matter is that some will pitch in HS and above, and the sooner they understand the better. There are times when you know when the pitcher is taking signs (and they do it at this level) because they will nod their head or turn it side to side. Is it nit-picking, certainly - but as I said earlier the sooner they understand the better.

I did two games last night and issued balk warnings (neither for taking signs off the rubber) in both games and called one balk, after the kid continued to utilize the same mechanic. I could have ignored it. The reason I don't is because I want the kids to learn proper mechanics because in the end it will make them better players and certainly more knowledgeable, with the hope that they will continue to show interest in the game.