Would you have called a balk?

[ozzy6900]

I am posting to the original quote of Tim so we can get back on track here.

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I did a varsity game tonight and for the first time I had a pitcher straddle the rubber and lean in to take his signs in a high school game. Of course the opposing coach immediately wanted a balk called since we had an R1 and an R2. I know that technically under 6.1 this is a balk. My question to you is would you have called it. Under OBR it's just a "don't do that."

Tim.

Let's start with the FED 6-1-1 portion that deals with the question.....

FED 6-1
ART. 1 ... The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or the set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate.

****************************************

Now we will proceed to the PENALTY at the end of FED ART 3....

FED 6-1-3

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

****************************************

Now to answer some of the questions posted to the thread (not you Tim, I know that you know the rules here). FED 6-1-3 PENALTY is the penalty for violations of any of pitching rules in FED 6-1 ART 1, 2 & 3 PERIOD!
People, please don't try to read into anything further, this is the penalty for the first 3 Articles of FED 6!

Also, I looked into the FED Casebook (sometimes I wonder why they even bother printing it) and they speak ad-nausium of F1 taking signs but alas, it seems that the FED assumes in each case that F1 is in proper contact with the rubber. Why should they assume otherwise? All the FED coaches properly instruct their players with the proper procedures of the FED, right?

So Steve, back to you. We are in agreement that in FED, if F1 is taking his sign off the rubber is indeed a balk! We (because of past discussions) also agree that it is a frivolous balk call and that OBR is correct in calling it a "don't do that!".

Now after all that, Steve, I'll answer your question: "Would I have called it?". My answer to you and the opposing coach is simple - I have no idea when F1 is in fact taking his sign! F1 can be standing there and F2 can be flexing his fingers for all I know (or care). Just as long as F1 does not Quick Pitch, there will not be a problem. Now I'll tell you this, if a coach complains to me once, both F1's from that point had better be aware that I and my partner will be watching the rest of the game. If F2 so much as flinches with F1 straddling the rubber, we will balk the hell out of F1 (and I've done it in several Varsity and sub-varsity games in the past).

Regards

[Don Mueller]

It's also a balk if in the set position the pitcher separates his hands BEFORE clearly stepping back with his pivot foot.
However many times the pitcher is clearly separating while in the process of stepping back.
Do you balk this if the pitcher is simultaneously stepping off and separating?
I don't balk it and I've never had a coach comment on it.
I think it's the least known balk rule known to a coach.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Now after all that, Steve, I'll answer your question: "Would I have called it?". My answer to you and the opposing coach is simple - I have no idea when F1 is in fact taking his sign! F1 can be standing there and F2 can be flexing his fingers for all I know (or care). Just as long as F1 does not Quick Pitch, there will not be a problem. Now I'll tell you this, if a coach complains to me once, both F1's from that point had better be aware that I and my partner will be watching the rest of the game. If F2 so much as flinches with F1 straddling the rubber, we will balk the hell out of F1 (and I've done it in several Varsity and sub-varsity games in the past).

Regards

[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Ozzy
How is it that before the coach complains you cannot discern or care when F2is giving signs, but after he complains you have crystal clear discernment?
IMO in this sitch, if it's worth calling after a complaint, it's worth calling before the complaint (or at least worth addressing)
I know there are some very subtle deceptive moves an F1 may have that we might not see or recognize and when brought to our attention we may then penalize if F1 continues, but to let a coach dictate a call on such a blatent act is giving him way to much influence.
And IMO it's a dead wrong call to balk for taking signs off the rubber unless he also fails to take a sign once he engages the rubber

(color added to Ozzy's quote for emphasis)

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Ozzy
How is it that before the coach complains you cannot discern or care when F2is giving signs, but after he complains you have crystal clear discernment?
IMO in this sitch, if it's worth calling after a complaint, it's worth calling before the complaint (or at least worth addressing)
I know there are some very subtle deceptive moves an F1 may have that we might not see or recognize and when brought to our attention we may then penalize if F1 continues, but to let a coach dictate a call on such a blatent act is giving him way to much influence.
And IMO it's a dead wrong call to balk for taking signs off the rubber unless he also fails to take a sign once he engages the rubber

(color added to Ozzy's quote for emphasis)

That's easy Don. I am not the pitcher so as I stated he could be staring at a "babe" for all I know while F2 is flexing his fingers. I'm not in F1's head.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

That's easy Don. I am not the pitcher so as I stated he could be staring at a "babe" for all I know while F2 is flexing his fingers. I'm not in F1's head.

I agree, but I was referring to the last sentence of your post.

"Now I'll tell you this, if a coach complains to me once, both F1's from that point had better be aware that I and my partner will be watching the rest of the game. If F2 so much as flinches with F1 straddling the rubber, we will balk the hell out of F1 (and I've done it in several Varsity and sub-varsity games in the past"

He's still looking at the same "babe" but now you're balking him.
So either you have better discernment after the complaint or you thought you knew it was a balk all along and you're letting the coach dictate when to call it.
Curious as to which it is?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I agree, but I was referring to the last sentence of your post.

"Now I'll tell you this, if a coach complains to me once, both F1's from that point had better be aware that I and my partner will be watching the rest of the game. If F2 so much as flinches with F1 straddling the rubber, we will balk the hell out of F1 (and I've done it in several Varsity and sub-varsity games in the past"

He's still looking at the same "babe" but now you're balking him.
So either you have better discernment after the complaint or you thought you knew it was a balk all along and you're letting the coach dictate when to call it.
Curious as to which it is?

It's kind of like the coach that pi$$es about the other coach being out of the box. If one complains they both have to suffer. Don't worry, When the coach complains about F1 taking his signs off the rubber, I'll give him the same spiel about looking at the babe. If he still insists, then I guess my partner and I have to look harder!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

It is not technically specified as a balk in 6.1. How can you balk just standing still looking in at the catcher straddling the rubber? Did he simulate a pitching motion? Wait until he steps on before you balk if the pitcher does anything wrong. Quick pitch, illegal move, etc. If you want to tell the pitcher to take his signs on the rubber, feel free.

It's been on the FED test before -- and the answer is that it's a balk (with runners on base). I've seen it called. I've never called it.

I think the FED's reasoning is that if F1 is looking in for the signs, he's acting like he is on the rubber. This influences the base runner's lead, and gives F1 some additional leeway that he wouldn't have if he were on the rubber. This is "too much" of an advantage for F1, so it needs to be penalized.

For what it's worth, in the house league where I do some games, at the 13-14 level we are instructed to give one balk warning per pitcher. I have no problem calling time and going to the mound and explaining what they did wrong and how to do it right. The pitchers and the coaches thank me for it. We have more and more younger kids these days who have no clue about the mechanics of pitching. The coaches are just as ill informed. The fact of the matter is that some will pitch in HS and above, and the sooner they understand the better. There are times when you know when the pitcher is taking signs (and they do it at this level) because they will nod their head or turn it side to side. Is it nit-picking, certainly - but as I said earlier the sooner they understand the better.

I did two games last night and issued balk warnings (neither for taking signs off the rubber) in both games and called one balk, after the kid continued to utilize the same mechanic. I could have ignored it. The reason I don't is because I want the kids to learn proper mechanics because in the end it will make them better players and certainly more knowledgeable, with the hope that they will continue to show interest in the game.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's been on the FED test before -- and the answer is that it's a balk (with runners on base). I've seen it called. I've never called it.

I think the FED's reasoning is that if F1 is looking in for the signs, he's acting like he is on the rubber. This influences the base runner's lead, and gives F1 some additional leeway that he wouldn't have if he were on the rubber. This is "too much" of an advantage for F1, so it needs to be penalized.

And under NCAA rules, it's a ball to the batter, with or without runners on base. That's less of a penalty, but I'd still just quietly tell the pitcher to make sure he's on the rubber when he takes the sign.