Leaving First Early

[tibear]

Everyone knows about the phantom tag of second base on a force where the F4 or F6 doesn't actually touch the bag and the umpire still calls the out when the ball clearly beats the runner.

Two questions:

1) Generally speaking, how far from the bag do you generally give the defensive person on a play where the runner is say 3 or 4 steps from the bag.

2) Again with the runner 3 or 4 steps from first, do you ever give F3 any leeway when they sometimes step off the bag a fraction of a second before they actually catch the ball? i.e. F3 catches the ball after lifting their foot off the bag.

[JRutledge]

Honestly I think you are asking the wrong question. The question should be do you allow a player knowingly to pull off the bag too early?

I do not allow a player to leave too early, but I do not nitpick this either. I call what likely happen without all the information. If a fielder is likely on the bag, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. I want to get and out anyway I can. Not if the fielder clearly left early, then I will call what took place accordingly. In most cases we are working 2 man systems and that puts us in some of the worst positions to see many plays. I call what is obvious to me. If I have to get out the ruler to determine something, then I am doing too much thinking about the play.

Peace

Originally Posted by tibear

Everyone knows about the phantom tag of second base on a force where the F4 or F6 doesn't actually touch the bag and the umpire still calls the out when the ball clearly beats the runner.

Two questions:

1) Generally speaking, how far from the bag do you generally give the defensive person on a play where the runner is say 3 or 4 steps from the bag.

2) Again with the runner 3 or 4 steps from first, do you ever give F3 any leeway when they sometimes step off the bag a fraction of a second before they actually catch the ball? i.e. F3 catches the ball after lifting their foot off the bag.

Regarding #1 - I'm not a believer in the phantom tag, so I don't call it.
Regarding #2 - See number 1

Especially #2 - if F3 is off, everyone's concentrating on it so they will know. The same is not always true for the phantom tag at second just because of the distance involved.

Regarding the phantom tag - some use safety to justify using it. However, with FED rules the way they are (and I only do FED rule games) they go out of their way to protect the fielder. Some use "the intent" of the game. Again, I am not a suscriber to that philosophy. If the rules makers wanted to allow for the phantom tag, it would be in the rules. I'm just one. Whatever you do you have to feel comfortable about it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

#1 - I was always taught that you make the fielder make the most out of the play. If he just stands off to the side, away from the base, and catches the ball then relays to first without touching the base, I call the runner safe. If he is making the play, crossing the base as he receives the throw, I give the benefit of the doubt, because he doesn't need to stand there and get spiked by the runner.

[waltjp]

I'm with Steve on the pivot at second base. If the fielder touches the bag and receives a good throw I'll ring up the out. The defense did what they were supposed to do and there's no reason to force someone to linger and possibly get spiked by a sliding runner. Conversely, if the throw is bad and pulls the pivot man off the base I'm not giving them the out.

Same logic applies to the phantom tag on a steal. If they receive the ball and get the glove down before the runner arrives I have an out. Please don't read this to mean that I say that the runner is out if the ball beats him there - the fielder must still get the tag down. I'm not rewarding a lazy tag.

When I was a young umpire I used to argue against both of these items. Now, with age and experience on my side, I see it differently.