JM, Steve, and Others

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Jefferson, in his letters, refers to a pamphlet he wrote in 1774, "A Summary View of the Rights of British America," which shares some of the form of the Declaration of Independence and the listing of grievances. I'm sure you can find the document on the internet somewhere. Check it out, it will look familiar.

Garth,

Personally. I find the first three "articles" of the Virginia Declaration of Rights to be obviously, let's just say, "inspirational" to the Declaration of Independence. Especially the actual declaration of independence part.

Most of the remainder (until the end) is clearly a progenitor to some of the basic principles embodied in the text of the Constitution and the following Bill of Rights,

"A Summary View of the Rights of British America", on the other hand (having first read it after your post earlier this evening), strikes me as more like the "Articles of Impeachment" section of the Declaration of Indepedence. As you said, it begins to articulate the grievances of the colonies in regard to their treatment by the British Crown; but I find it significantly less eloquent than the Virginia Declaration in the assertion of rights against those grievances.

JMO.

JM

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I apologize to those who are bewildered by how off-topic this thread became. One of my teaching endorsements is in history, and my family claims Oliver Wolcott, a signer of the Declaration of Indenpendence, as an ancestor.

Thus, I am inclined to jump in on historical discussions, particularly those of "Colonial Times" and/or New York and New England.

Again, sorry.

Garth,

Hey, I'm the one who started us off this cliff, so I don't see where YOU need to apologize. And I don't intend to. Nobody has a gun to his head forcing him to read this. Personally, I find it kind of interesting - not to mention patriotic. It IS the 4th of July holiday, after all.

BTW, there are some in my family who claim Daniel Carroll of Carrollton as an ancestor. Personally, I'm a little skeptical, but I do hold those who founded this country in very high esteem.

JM

[TussAgee11]

1) What day was the Declaration of Independance actually agreed upon and originally signed by all members of the Continental Congress? (Don't make me dig up the quote from John Adams in a letter to Abagail, but I will if I have to, if you don't know the story just nod your head.)

2) What two presidents have died on July 4th (actually in the same year, bonus for those who know the year and who died first).

[TussAgee11]

Just realized my first question actually has two answers.

part a) date of agreement, thought by John Adams to become our Independence Day and

b) Date of signing

[SanDiegoSteve]

Without cheating to look it up, John Adams died on July 4th. I'm guessing James Madison? I can't get it. I'm going to cheat. Hold on.

Okay, I got one right, but they didn't die in the same year according to this.

I thought I was right with 1826, which is when Adams (John, not John Q.) died. It says that James Monroe died in 1831. I thought it was the same year too. I wonder if this is wrong. I will look for a different source.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Nope. Monroe died July 4, 1831, 5 years after Adams.

Which two presidents lived to be 90?

[BRump]

Adams and Jefferson died on the same 4th of July. Adams died first, and on Jefferson's death bed he said something to the effect of, "At least Adams still lives."

Also, I believe that most of the Dec. of Ind. draws its ideals from the works of the philosopher, John Locke. I know Jefferson was well versed with Lockean philosophy.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Garth,

Personally. I find the first three "articles" of the Virginia Declaration of Rights to be obviously, let's just say, "inspirational" to the Declaration of Independence. Especially the actual declaration of independence part.

Most of the remainder (until the end) is clearly a progenitor to some of the basic principles embodied in the text of the Constitution and the following Bill of Rights,

"A Summary View of the Rights of British America", on the other hand (having first read it after your post earlier this evening), strikes me as more like the "Articles of Impeachment" section of the Declaration of Indepedence. As you said, it begins to articulate the grievances of the colonies in regard to their treatment by the British Crown; but I find it significantly less eloquent than the Virginia Declaration in the assertion of rights against those grievances.

JMO.

JM

Which is why I used the word "form" and not "style".

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

1) What day was the Declaration of Independance actually agreed upon and originally signed by all members of the Continental Congress? (Don't make me dig up the quote from John Adams in a letter to Abagail, but I will if I have to, if you don't know the story just nod your head.)

.

I think you are confusing two votes.

On July 2, 1776, the Continental Congress voted and approved a resolution presented by John Adams and Richard H. Lee that stated: "Resolved, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved.''

John Adams felt that because of this resolution on this date, and perhaps due in part to his ownership of the resolution, July 2nd would celebrated as Independence Day. However, on July 3rd, the congress then took up debate on the proprosal from the Committee of Five, headed up by Jefferson. This proposal is what we now call the Declaration of Independence and it was indeed passd on July 4, 1776.

So we have two dates. On July 2, congress voted for independence; on July 4 congress approved Jefferson's document.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I think you are confusing two votes.

On July 2, 1776, the Continental Congress voted and approved a resolution presented by John Adams and Richard H. Lee that stated: "Resolved, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved.''

John Adams felt that because of this resolution on this date, and perhaps due in part to his ownership of the resolution, July 2nd would celebrated as Independence Day. However, on July 3rd, the congress then took up debate on the proprosal from the Committee of Five, headed up by Jefferson. This proposal is what we now call the Declaration of Independence and it was indeed passd on July 4, 1776.

So we have two dates. On July 2, congress voted for independence; on July 4 congress approved Jefferson's document.

Since it seemed to be unclear, the Decleration was signed on August 2nd. Voted on July 4th. Independence voted on on July 2nd.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Tim & Garth,

1. If I remember correctly, the only "signer" who was under the age of 30 at the time. Any relation to JRut ?

Did he own slaves? I am sure my last name did not come from my ancestry of Western Africa.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Since it seemed to be unclear, the Decleration was signed on August 2nd. Voted on July 4th. Independence voted on on July 2nd.

You are partially correct. Most of the delegates signed the document on August 2nd. However, Elbridge Gerry, Oliver Wolcott, Lewis Morris, Thomas McKean, and Matthew Thornton were not present on August 2nd and signed on a later date. There is not unanimous agreement as to the date of the final signature, but it was sometime after August 2.

And, despite the order of congress that the document be signed by every member, John Dickinson and Robert Livingingston never signed it.

So, in reveiw, and pay attention, because there WILL be a quiz: A resolution calling for indpendence was voted upon and approved on July 2, 1776. The proposal from the Committee of Five, known as the Declaration of Independence, was voted upon and approved on July 4, 1776. Fifty-two members of Congress signed one of the copies of the document on August 2, 1776. Four members of Congress signed the same copy by an unknown later date. And two members of Congress never signed the document.

Okay, put your notes away and take out a pen and a clean sheet of paper......

(edited to add: Let us not forget, also, that only 12 colonies originally voted for both the resolution of independence and the Declaration of Independence. New York abstained until July 9.)

[UmpJM]

Garth,

Thanks for the history lesson. I know I learned something, which to me is a key indicator that I'm still alive. I'm curious about what level you teach. Although I've never met you, I would guess that you are a fairly demanding teacher and that your students (at least those willing to exert the effort) actually learn something. In my mind, there is no more honorable or valuable vocation. (In case it is not clear, there is not an iota of sarcasm intended in my comments.)

To all who have responded,

Thank you for your assistance with my annual Independence Day quiz. You've given me some good new material.

My children really get a kick out of it - well, OK, they hate it. But, they do know "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"; "Our Lives, Our Fortunes, and Our Sacred Honor"; and a few other things. I promise to leave your names out of it so that you will not have to suffer the disdain I do for engaging in this "tradition".

JM

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'm wondering if it's really worth it to continue to point out the erroneous information he posts on this site any longer. I keep hoping to see some improvement, but I doubt any is forthcoming. Just a thought on a late Friday night.

Tim.

Please, continue to post correct answers. I'm sure that there are many lurkers here that should not be allowed to believe false information.

A quick note, with citations to acceptable authority, will do wonders to correct bad answers that come off the top of somebody's head (or other ends of the anatomy).

You need not go into a back and forth personal discussion to meet this goal.