Catch? Out?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by PWL

Where do you come up with this crap? Did I cite the 2.00 the definition of a catch? NO. I cited 7.08(d). Why wouldn't the rule simply say a caught fly ball? It says fair or foul ball is caught.

There is also a rule elsewhere in the rulebook that refers to a "lefthanded or righthanded pitcher." Is there any other kind?

As you said yourself, the rule is poorly worded. It says "legally caught" when it should say "first touched and then legally caught." Lots of rules in the rulebook are poorly worded, which is why we have clarifications in the form of Casebook Comments, and official and authoritative interpretive manuals. The rulebook is like a really important contract written by a really bad lawyer.

In this particular case, the cliche "in a fight between you and the world, back the world" is completely applicable. You're in a minority of 1 in your erroneous intepretation.

[SanDiegoSteve]

From the BRD:

FED: A baserunner may leave his base as soon as a fly ball is touched by the first fielder. (8-2-4)

NCAA: Same as FED. (8-6a-1)

OBR: Same as FED. "Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. (2.00 Catch CMT 1)

Carl goes on to point out the inconsistencies contained in OBR, and again in this case, Rule 7.10(a) is in place only to make sure that the runner does not get a "running start" from a point behind the base, IOW, he must start in contact with the base. It also states "after the ball is caught" but it too should read "after first touched by a fielder."

[ctblu40]

Look at the comment attached to rule 2-
Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

There are many problems with the official rules, but this one seems to be one such problem that everyone I've ever talked to agrees upon.

I'm failing to understand where you're coming from with thi PWL. I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but help me understand your logic...

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Hopefully, I'm talking to to some one who can look at things in a little different perspective. Just leave the rule to the side for a minute. If a ball is hit in fair ground you do not need the definition of a catch to advance, only a touch is required. If the ball is hit into foul territory, a fielder may bobble it five times and then drop it and no advance will take place. You need a legal catch to advance. Now 7.08(d) refers that a fair or foul ball be caught legally.

I have offered a solution to anyone that wants to take me up on the offer. I have spoken to Mr. Evans on this subject and this is answer he gave me. He stated that only a touch is required in fair territory, but a catch is required in foul territory. Never was a first touch brought up in the conversation, but he did imply that the rule was written incorrectly. So to me a definition of catch must be meet before a runner can legally tag when a play is being made on him in foul territory.

I finally see where you're coming from. What you've been trying to say is that on a foul fly ball it's a moot point as to whether or not the runner can advance on first touch if the ball is dropped. Simply put it's a foul ball dead ball. However, the play we've been discussing has the ball being legally caught, although it's been caught by a second fielder over foul territory where the ball remains live and in play. This means that the defintion of a legal catch has to be looked at to make a proper ruling. And we all know that on a legal catch the runner can advance on first contact.


Tim.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PWL

Hopefully, I'm talking to to some one who can look at things in a little different perspective. Just leave the rule to the side for a minute. If a ball is hit in fair ground you do not need the definition of a catch to advance, only a touch is required. If the ball is hit into foul territory, a fielder may bobble it five times and then drop it and no advance will take place. You need a legal catch to advance. Now 7.08(d) refers that a fair or foul ball be caught legally.

I have offered a solution to anyone that wants to take me up on the offer. I have spoken to Mr. Evans on this subject and this is answer he gave me. He stated that only a touch is required in fair territory, but a catch is required in foul territory. Never was a first touch brought up in the conversation, but he did imply that the rule was written incorrectly. So to me a definition of catch must be meet before a runner can legally tag when a play is being made on him in foul territory.

Okay, I think I'm starting to see the logic here... perhaps there are 4 ideas that need to be explored in parallel:

1. When is a runner called out for not properly retouching after a batted ball is caught in flight?

2. The definition of a catch.

3. The definition of "in flight."

4. When does a batted ball become fair (or foul)?

Okay... I think I'm starting to understand your logic a little more. Perhaps there are 3 ideas/definitions we need to explore with this:
1. When is a player out for not properly retouching after a batted ball is caught in flight.

[NFump]

Hook, line and sinker. Nice recovery though. Excellent twist.

[BRump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

1. When is a player out for not properly retouching after a batted ball is caught in flight.

Only on appeal.

Back to the fair/foul argument...I think I see where PWL is making his case, that runners can only advance on a fly ball in foul territory when legally caught, and that runners can only advance on a fly ball in fair territory once it touches a fielder. Everyone else is saying a similar thing, just with different words.

Obviously, if the a fielder touches a fly ball over fair territory the runners can leave at the point and advance. If the ball is in foul territory, then the runners can only advance if the ball is legally caught, otherwise it's a fould ball and the runners must return.

This seems to be the hang-up. The runners can leave their base as soon as the ball is touched by a fielder no matter where the ball is, but cannot advance to the next base unless the ball is in fair territory (catch/no catch), or is legally caught in foul territory.

[LakeErieUmp]

No, that's not what the rule means! A runner can only advance on a foul ball that is "legally caught" to differntiate it from a foul ball that is touched and drops to the ground! There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING, in the rule that even remotely suggests a runner cannot leave his BASE until a foul is caught. If it's bobbled dropped, he returns. If it's bobbled and caught, he heads-up has a new base.
Easy call.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PWL

According to the rule book 7.08(d) he can only advance when the ball is caught. Too many people are trying to merge the definition of a catch into a completely different situation altogether.

Where does 7.10(a) have anything to do with this?

Does not anybody think with 237 errors (or more) in the rules of baseball, you could be looking at least two of them.

You have to merge the def of a catch with this sitch because a runner can only advance when the ball is caught. Try to look up the correct application of the rule as though you have no prior knowledge of the rules. After seeing d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play;


The next logical step would be to find out what a catch is and then you read ...Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

WAY TO LIE SDS.......

FED RULE 8-2-4 reads...if a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has touched the fielder.

TOUCH....To touch a player or umpire is to touch any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

Now back to the subject at hand. Fielder touches fly ball in fair territory and it hits the ground. No tag up is necessary. Fielder touches fly ball in foul territory and ball hit ground, it is just a strike, runner cannot advance. According to the rule book 7.08(d) he can only advance when the ball is caught. Too many people are trying to merge the definition of a catch into a completely different situation altogether.

Where does 7.10(a) have anything to do with this?

Does not anybody think with 237 errors (or more) in the rules of baseball, you could be looking at least two of them.

Where did I lie? I copied that whole thing word for word from the BRD. Do you mean that Carl is lying? Then call him a liar.

7.10(a) is listed there along with the touch requirements just to illustrate the inconsistency in the language of the rule, just like you are saying about the errors in the book. In that there are errors, we agree. But there are interpretations in place that specify which rule to go by.

Carl goes on to say, in touch requirements, to just go by rule 2.00 Catch: Comment 1, which states that on any fly ball, the runners can leave their bases as soon as the first fielder TOUCHES the ball!!!

That is the ruling to use in all fly ball situations. Do you get that?