Catch? Out?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Thanks Confucius!

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Never argue with a fool. People might not know the difference.

It's better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. PWL might do well to remember this.


Tim.

[TussAgee11]

Man, I wish this forum had an ignore poster feature. Sure would make all of our lives easier...

[SanDiegoSteve]

It does have an ignore poster feature. Go to User CP at the top and you'll find it. I had him on ignore, but I kept reading his post in Tim's quotes, so I ended up having to read his crap anyway, so I unblocked it.

[BRump]

Looking through the rulebook I think I see where PWL is getting his information. Under rule 2.00: "A Foul Ball is a batted ball...while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground."

According to this, it would seem that once the ball touches the first player it becomes a foul ball.

[NFump]

That would be correct. However, the runners do not have to wait until the foul fly ball is caught to start their advance, they may leave on first touch of the ball just like a fair ball. If the foul fly ball is dropped then it becomes a foul ball and they must return. PWL is trying to save face by twisting this to a "when can they advance" issue when it's a "when may they start their advance issue".

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by BRump

Looking through the rulebook I think I see where PWL is getting his information. Under rule 2.00: "A Foul Ball is a batted ball...while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground."

According to this, it would seem that once the ball touches the first player it becomes a foul ball.

I don't think there's any doubt about where he got this idea, the point of contention is how you interpret the rule and come to the conclusion that a runner must wait until a fly ball is foul territory is caught.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by PWL

Way to cut and paste to try and suit your needs. You only make your self look foolish when do this. Anyone with a pulse sees right through you. As long as you have your legion behind you, you feel safe in your assertion that your right. Believe me I have spoken to the esteemed Mr. Evans and he described that a fair ball only need to be touched and a foul ball should be caught. I've asked anyone to feel free to contact the man for his exact varification. Admit it the two rules do not jive together as written. I feel it is something to be look into for clarification.

I am very sure you are misunderstanding Jim's answer to you, so I will email him and obtain clarification.

[TussAgee11]

So what you're saying PWL is that on a fair ball its at point of touch while foul its time of legal catch.

So on a foul ball, fielders can play volleyball all the way into the infield?

The ball is foul once touched, but not "dead" until hit hits the ground. You can advance on foul balls. You cannot advance once its dead.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

I never mentioned anything about volleyball.....

That was from the space cadet in San Diego........

He supposedly did a history search and found this out.........

I didn't think volleyball had been invented then.....

He's been known to lie before........

The game of Volleyball was invented by William Morgan in 1895 at the YMCA in Holyoke, Mass.

I became known as "Volleyball" when during a demonstration, a spectator commented that there was a lot of volleying involved in playing the game.

Morgan based his new game on the popular German game called "Faustball."

On the other subject, before they had a rule allowing baserunners to tag up and leave their bases as soon as the ball was touched, the strategy of some outfielders was to not catch the fly balls, but to merely juggle, or "volley" the baseball back close enough to the infield before finally catching the ball, hence preventing the runners from advancing, as they could not leave until the ball was "caught." This, obviously PWL, is no longer the case.

This space cadet has forgotten more about the game of baseball than you've ever known.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

I am not trying to save face. I'm trying to have an open discussion on the rule. The only problem is that is has been railroaded by the likes of BigUmp56 and SanDiegoSteve with a little help from Coach JM.

You have not been trying to have an open discussion. If you had, we would have had an open discussion about how wrong you were, you would agree, and then you would shut up about it. Instead of doing this, and just admitting you were mistaken to begin with, you crack back on the two people that you have had it in for since day 1.

We have only corrected you in the past in hopes that you would learn and become a better official. You chose to overpersonalize our criticisms and lash out with personal attacks. Perhaps we were a bit heavyhanded and sarcastic in our original criticisms of you, but we take the same kind of remarks all the time when we have a gross misunderstanding of a rule or procedure.

Nobody "railroaded" anything. We just gave the correct interpretation to an ambigously written rule, and you have decided to make it your Waterloo.

[BRump]

Going back to the fair/foul...according to the way I am interpreting the rule (I acknowledge I may be incorrect), it seems that once a ball touches a person while over foul territory it immediately becomes a foul ball, and therefore a dead ball. Now, I understand that once the ball is touched the runners can leave, but because the ball is dead upon touch the runners could not advance. So, the juggling act for which the various rules counter seems to not apply for a foul ball, because upon touch the ball is dead. However, if the first touch is a catch the runners can advance.

[NFump]

If it is dead upon touch and the runners cannot advance then you could not get an out either. Yet, you do. Hmmmmmm......


As for opening a discussion of a rule, it's a rule that's cut and dry (at least one would think so). What you are trying to "discuss" is contradictory to the rule.

[NFump]

Originally Posted by PWL

Excellent observation. This is what I have been trying to get through to certain people. The ball becomes foul when it is touched over foul territory. It is a foul ball until it is a catch. In foul ground you actually have to have the definition of a catch to advance. Not so in fair territory. Touch has nothing to do with it. Hence rule 7.02 (d) states a runner cannot advance until a foul ball is caught. What Steve fails to understand is that not every rule in baseball covers every single situation. Must have been one of those things he forgot.

7.02(d)? Non-existent. 7.02 states: In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

Now please read 5.09(e) The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when-

(e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return.

Soooooooo.....even though it's foul it's not dead until it touches the ground (or some other unnatural object). If it's not dead, it's.......LIVE! If it's live it is the same as a fair ball. Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball if finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may......and so on. The bold is the pertinent part. Notice it makes no mention of whether the ball is fair or foul. It's time to quit the BS.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BRump

Going back to the fair/foul...according to the way I am interpreting the rule (I acknowledge I may be incorrect), it seems that once a ball touches a person while over foul territory it immediately becomes a foul ball, and therefore a dead ball. Now, I understand that once the ball is touched the runners can leave, but because the ball is dead upon touch the runners could not advance. So, the juggling act for which the various rules counter seems to not apply for a foul ball, because upon touch the ball is dead. However, if the first touch is a catch the runners can advance.

Tee, does this post tie?

A foul fly does not become a dead ball until it becomes an uncaught, ordinary foul ball. When have you ever seen a foul ball that was eventually legally caught after being bobbled declared a dead ball? Answer, never, because it does not. It is merely a poorly worded rule, which is clarified by interpretations, and by the definition of a catch under Rule 2.00, stating that the runners may leave the base the moment the first fielder touches the ball, and makes no distinction between fair or foul.

Rule 2.00 FOUL BALL is describing a ball which touches an umpire, player, object foreign to the natural ground which is not caught. The writers did not put the emphasized part in the rule, probably because they figured that it was so obvious, it didn't need to be mentioned.

If a player bobbles a foul fly and another player catches it before the ball hits the ground, it is a catch, and the ball remains alive. Only when it is declared "no catch" by the umpire does the ball become dead.