Ozzie Guillen's so-called apology

[SanDiegoSteve]

Garth,

Good quotes, and I did say that by and large the founding fathers were Christians. Hundreds more quotes from the Christian founders could be added, but I didn't think it would be necessary. Of course, Jefferson, Franklin, and some others were exceptions. My seventh generation grandfather was Alexander Hamilton, and I come from a long line of Scottish Rite Freemasons and Eastern Star members, so I know the history involved there too.

The Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, both speak of God, our creator. Nowhere in either of these documents do they denounce the existence of God.

You said that they all worked together to keep religion out of government, when from all I've researched they mainly were working to keep government out of their religous freedoms, which is why they left England and the Mother Church, which was run by the government. The so-called "Separation of Church and State," which in reality does not exist, was an effort to stop the government intervention into the church's business, not the portrait being painted nowdays by the athiests, who want to tear down all the crosses at the war memorials on public land because they feel they are in violation of this mythical separation.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Here are just a few quotes from the Bible-believing Founding Fathers:

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” - Noah Webster

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” - James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia

“ The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.” - John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son

Quotes by George Washington:

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” - George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779

A Portion of George Washington's personal prayers:

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..." - [from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]

John Adams and John Hancock:
"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" - [April 18, 1775]

From John Adams:

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” – John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." - December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

John Adams believed that government should never impose a denomination or particular religion upon the people, and didn't like the bickering that went on between the different Christian denominations.

There are so many more quotations that refute the athiests attempt to deny our nation's Christian heritage. These people have many websites dedicated to their anti-God agenda. They take quotations by the Founding Fathers out of context, snip parts to suit their own purposes, and totally misrepresent the original thoughts of these great men in history.

[SanDiegoSteve]

And speaking of Alexander Hamilton:

Alexander Hamilton:

Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:

(1) Christianity

(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." - [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

And back to Ben Franklin:

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Here are just a few quotes from the Bible-believing Founding Fathers:

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” - Noah Webster

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” - James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia

“ The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.” - John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son

Quotes by George Washington:

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” - George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779

A Portion of George Washington's personal prayers:

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..." - [from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]

John Adams and John Hancock:
"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" - [April 18, 1775]

From John Adams:

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” – John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." - December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

John Adams believed that government should never impose a denomination or particular religion upon the people, and didn't like the bickering that went on between the different Christian denominations.

There are so many more quotations that refute the athiests attempt to deny our nation's Christian heritage. These people have many websites dedicated to their anti-God agenda. They take quotations by the Founding Fathers out of context, snip parts to suit their own purposes, and totally misrepresent the original thoughts of these great men in history.

My favorite quote:

"Hundreds more quotes from the Christian founders could be added, but I didn't think it would be necessary." San Diego Steve.

Quotes are funny things. Some people see quotation marks and a claim by someone that so-and-so said these words and they believe. Not every quote is accurate. Research has shown, according to one of his biographers, that half the quotes attributed to Mark Twain are not really attributable to Mark Twain.

Similarly, the quote above you attribute to James Madison has been denounced as fraudulent by at least four of his major biographers and several Supreme Court justices. Several others are not independently and academically verifiable. The one you cited regarding the founding of Ben Franklin University is not regarded as a Ben Franklin quote. In short quotations marks do not lend authenticity.

This is why I listed verifiable sources for the quotes I used and did not include such quotes as "According to Gouverneur Morris, Washington told him he had as much use for Christianity as he did." and "No one found it strange that Washington did not participate in any of the church sacraments including communion, and refused, on his deathbed, to pray or receive a local pastor."

While these are included in biographies, no direct, verifiable reference is listed so I do not consider them valid.

What I do know first hand about Washington is that none of his surviving letters contain any reference to any belief in Christianity or God. Take a look.

While a mention of a "creator" is made in the Declaration of Independence, which is not a governing document, by the way, I do not find the word "God" in either the Declaration of Independence or in the U.S. Constitution. Neither are the words Jesus, Bible, Ten Commandments, or Christianity to be found. The constitution does, however, clearly state that: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3).

This, brought to it's normal conclusion, would never be concluded. Although you and I seem to share a faith, we do not share the same opinion of what is fact and what is not. My faith is solid enough to withstand the honesty of history.

Therefore, this will be my last word on this very off-topic, topic. And I assure you, unlike someone , I will not go back on what I have just written.

Pax vobiscum

[SanDiegoSteve]

Okay, you got me with the Latin, no hablo.

I said that I didn't think it would be necessary to post quotes. I found that it was. I never said I wouldn't list quotes. People have been trying to refute the influence of God in the original Founding Fathers since the birth of this nation. It's not surprising that many quotes have been subject to scrutiny and that many have been refuted.

If I go any farther, I'll start to preach, and this really is not the forum for it.

I will let the subject rest as is. At least until someone else says "religious zealots."

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

This being a Christian founded nation (fact, just do the research and don't try to argue the point) ...

Now, don't even come back and say that this nation was founded by "diests" and "agnostics" because that is a lie, and the people who say it know it's a lie...

I can produce hundreds of quotations to back this up, so don't even try to refute what I say.
All that being said, I, much like God, love people.

You may not be a religious zealot, but you sure argue like one.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Sounds more like a Bible believing Christian than a "zealot." I did not want to have to argue with non-believers. Not on this forum, which is supposed to be about umpiring. The thread got off track, but it is my thread, so I control its destiny.

These were caveats to my thread.

So, get your own thread and post whatever you please with my blessings.

Sorry if I came off like the Great And Powerful Oz.

Because I, much like the Wizard of Oz, love people.