runner thought he was out

[yankeesfan]

runner on 1st, ball hit to short who throws to 2nd base, 2nd baseman comes off the bag early and throws to first. the throw to first went over the first basemans head. runner that was on first thought he was out started walking to the dugout and was near the pitchers mound when he realized he was safe. he than ran to third and the batter took off for second, everyone was safe. did that runner give himself up when he headed to the dugout?

[greymule]

Nothing like the phrase "give himself up" appears in any of my books. Where did you get this?

And exactly where was the runner when he decided to run to 3B? Had he in effect retreated toward 1B? That is, was he more toward 1B than 3B?

[SanDiegoSteve]

The runner establishes his own baseline, and since no play was being made on him, he can right the ship and head for third. From the point where he decided to go to third, his baseline is between there and 3rd base. If the defense tries to tag him, he cannot go more than 3 feet out of his newly established baseline to avoid a tag.

[RPatrino]

BRD cites, FED 8-4-2p, which states a runner is out if, after touching first, he abandons his attempt to run the bases. The umpire must judge whether a runner "heading for the dugout or his defensive position" is abandoning his efforts to run the bases. NCAA , same as FED, except runner is automatically charged with abandonment. OBR, same as FED.

[UmpJM]

yankeesfan,

JEA suggests that in your sitch, with the runner at (or approaching) 2B, he would not be called out for abandonment until he crossed the foul line in his return to the dugout. He would have the ability to "reassert his status as a runner" up until that point.

As SD Steve says, were he to do so, his "baseline" is a direct line from wherever he happens to be to his advance or return base, with a 3' tolerance either side, should the defense attempt to tag him out.

JM

P.S. And yes, I'm sure.

[LMan]

Agreed, being in the vicinity of the mound is hardly abandonment. He has to cross a foul line or move to his defensive position first, in my mind.

Aside: if he thought he was out at 2d, the BU must not have been very emphatic with his call. Since a 'safe' call here is the unexpected play, the BU needs to sell this strongly.

[RPatrino]

PWL, I originally cited the FED, NCAA and OBR rules pertaining to "abandonment". You seem to have conveniently ignored the part of the rule that pertains to "judgement" in your rush to skewer Steve.

By the way, Steve is right in this situation. I know that comforts you.

Bob P.

[greymule]

If the runner's team occupied the 1B dugout, and the runner, moving toward his dugout in the belief that he was out, in effect retreated toward 1B before running directly to 3B, I think he could be considered as having missed 2B.

[mcrowder]

I'm pretty sure the baseLINES are established before the game starts.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I'm pretty sure the baseLINES are established before the game starts.

mcrowder,

I believe you are referring to the "foul lines", as in:

"...The foul lines and all other playing lines indicated in the diagrams by solid black lines shall be marked with wet, unslaked lime, chalk or other white material. ..."

And does anybody have any idea what "unslaked lime" is & how it would differ from "slaked lime"?

JM

[RPatrino]

I suppose its not slaked....

Bob(Mr. Obvious) P.

[RPatrino]

PWL,

I was refering to Steve being correct about the runner establishing his own baseline. Also, you emphatically state the runner was out, I mearly mentioned that an out is not automatic.

Bob P.

[TussAgee11]

He's out in FED in my mind.

Also, about establishing baselines: with each throw by the defense, the runner establishes a new baseline (3 feet each way). So he doesn't have to keep running in a V shape, back to the pitchers mound, he can work his way back to the direct line in between (probably will be gradually on each throw).

Correct me if I'm wrong....

[Bainer]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

mcrowder,

And does anybody have any idea what "unslaked lime" is & how it would differ from "slaked lime"?

JM

SLAKED LIME-This is the common name for Calcium Hydroxide: It is lime (crushed limestone) combined with water or moist air to create a paste or liquid (limewater or hydrated lime).

UNSLAKED LIME-This is the powdered, course product of crushing limestone.

Lime in many forms is caustic and can burn skin and fabric- thus the change to modern chalk.

Incidently, the use of unslaked lime has given us some of our most revered traditions including the kicking of dirt, etc. on umpires (lime will make very short work of wool pants), and catchers wiping out the back lines of the batter's boxes (they were afraid of pitches in the dirt and shuffling around the plate getting the lime into their eyes).

Anyway...that's what lime is!


Bainer

[UmpJM]

Bainer,

Thank you very much. I guess you can learn something new every day.

JM