runner thought he was out

[yankeesfan]

runner on 1st, ball hit to short who throws to 2nd base, 2nd baseman comes off the bag early and throws to first. the throw to first went over the first basemans head. runner that was on first thought he was out started walking to the dugout and was near the pitchers mound when he realized he was safe. he than ran to third and the batter took off for second, everyone was safe. did that runner give himself up when he headed to the dugout?

[greymule]

Nothing like the phrase "give himself up" appears in any of my books. Where did you get this?

And exactly where was the runner when he decided to run to 3B? Had he in effect retreated toward 1B? That is, was he more toward 1B than 3B?

[SanDiegoSteve]

The runner establishes his own baseline, and since no play was being made on him, he can right the ship and head for third. From the point where he decided to go to third, his baseline is between there and 3rd base. If the defense tries to tag him, he cannot go more than 3 feet out of his newly established baseline to avoid a tag.

[RPatrino]

BRD cites, FED 8-4-2p, which states a runner is out if, after touching first, he abandons his attempt to run the bases. The umpire must judge whether a runner "heading for the dugout or his defensive position" is abandoning his efforts to run the bases. NCAA , same as FED, except runner is automatically charged with abandonment. OBR, same as FED.

[UmpJM]

yankeesfan,

JEA suggests that in your sitch, with the runner at (or approaching) 2B, he would not be called out for abandonment until he crossed the foul line in his return to the dugout. He would have the ability to "reassert his status as a runner" up until that point.

As SD Steve says, were he to do so, his "baseline" is a direct line from wherever he happens to be to his advance or return base, with a 3' tolerance either side, should the defense attempt to tag him out.

JM

P.S. And yes, I'm sure.

[LMan]

Agreed, being in the vicinity of the mound is hardly abandonment. He has to cross a foul line or move to his defensive position first, in my mind.

Aside: if he thought he was out at 2d, the BU must not have been very emphatic with his call. Since a 'safe' call here is the unexpected play, the BU needs to sell this strongly.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

FED 8-4-2-p. RUNNER IS OUT.

A runner is out after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base ; or NOTE: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading to for the the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is not further play, shall be declared out out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

What does establishing a baseline have to do with the play?

Don't assume it's umpires fault the runner didn't know he wasn't safe.

Maybe he was the pitcher?

But what do I know?

An established baseline has everything to do with this play. You may choose to believe that Evans interpretation doesn't count for much, but you'll find the rest of us hold his assessments in very high regard. As others have said, it's a judgment as to whether or not the runner has abandoned all efforts to run the bases. Evans gives us a little insight on this with the following.


PLAY: Runner, believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be out for abandoning the bases.



I have to believe that the reason Steve mentioned the baseline criteria was to illustrate that by simply leaving the three foot basepath restriction the runner is not to be called out for that act alone. This only applies when he's attempting to avoid a tag. This is an often missapplied rule, as many inexperienced umpires will call a runner out for moving more than three feet out of a direct line between the bases when there isn't a tag attempt.

Evans further clarifies different criterion for determining when to call a runner out for abandonment depending on the last base they legally held.



7.08(a.2) - Common sense dictates that the only logical reason a player would abandon 1st base after overrunning it would be because he thought he had been declared out by the umpire. The player should not be penalized for an umpire's improper signaling or incorrect mechanic. Therefore, the runner should not be automatically called out if he temporarily leaves the extended basepath. A player who leaves the infield area abandoning the base paths between 1st base and 3rd base may be declared out once he leaves fair territory. If a play is being made on him, however, he is subject to the guidelines established in 7.08(a.1)...he must be advancing toward a base and cannot go more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A runner who leaves 3rd base for any reason is not out until he enters a dugout when no play is being made on him. He shall be declared out for abandoning the base paths if a play is being made on him and (1) he is not making a bona fide effort to reach home plate or return to 3rd; or (2) he runs more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A batter-runner who inexplicably fails to return directly to 1st base after overrunning it shall not be called out before entering the dugout. If he failed to touch the base, he is subject to an appeal play. He can be retired by the defensive team either tagging him or the missed base and making a proper appeal. In trying to get back to 1st base after missing it, the batter-runner must make a legitimate effort to proceed directly to the base. Any circuitous or evasive running which the umpire determines not to be an immediate attempt to reach 1st base shall be grounds for declaring the batter-runner out.



Tim.

[RPatrino]

PWL, I originally cited the FED, NCAA and OBR rules pertaining to "abandonment". You seem to have conveniently ignored the part of the rule that pertains to "judgement" in your rush to skewer Steve.

By the way, Steve is right in this situation. I know that comforts you.

Bob P.

[DG]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

runner on 1st, ball hit to short who throws to 2nd base, 2nd baseman comes off the bag early and throws to first. the throw to first went over the first basemans head. runner that was on first thought he was out started walking to the dugout and was near the pitchers mound when he realized he was safe. he than ran to third and the batter took off for second, everyone was safe. did that runner give himself up when he headed to the dugout?

"When he headed for the dugout" - abandonment should require judgement involving reasonable distance to the duguout, and no intent to advance. Is the pitching mound reasonable distance, probably not. Did the runner have no intent to advance, probably not, since he tried once he realized. If the ball went dead when it went over F3's head, I would rule R1 out if he had made no effort to advance prior to ball going dead. If the ball did not go dead then R1 may advance to 3b if he showed intent to correct his baserunning error, and was no farther to the dugout than the pitcher's mound.