Do you count the run?

[UmpJM]

S.D. Steve,

I believe that in UMP25's sitch, the R3 is the only baserunner. Therefore, there is no award to the R3 on the ball 4 (wild) pitch to the batter.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Man, I'm not reading well lately.

[BoomerSooner]

Wouldn't the key to this situation be that, in this case, the batter's time at bat ends upon become a runner or more properly a batter-runner and therefore anything that occurs after this point can be negated by batting out of order.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

I do remember a FED case play with runner at third and two out stating that the activity of the improper batter did not assist or advance the base runner. I believe this was for a steal of home. It also stated something about if it was the third strike if catcher either caught the ball or threw out the improper batter at first the run would not count.

So with a base on balls, wouldn't this be the same thing.

Runs scores. Improper batter out on proper appeal.

Also FED has any runner advancing on a balk, wild pitch, passed ball, or steal while the improper batter is at bat is legal.

Should be the same in OBR.

The only way the run would score on an advance unrelated to the improper batters advance to first would be with less than two outs. This play has two outs and no run can score if the third out is made before the batter obtains first base. No run scores on this play.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

The only way the run would score on an advance unrelated to the improper batters advance to first would be with less than two outs. This play has two outs and no run can score if the third out is made before the batter obtains first base. No run scores on this play.


Tim.

I still say the run counts, and that PWL is correct. The third out was certainly not made before the batter had obtained first base. Where do you get that? The improper batter was called out on appeal. That is after he had obtained first base, legally or illegally. J/R says that if the run scored on the wild pitch during the improper batter's at bat, then the run counts.

[BigUmp56]

Steve:

He legally completed his time at bat as soon as he took ball four, so the advance was not during his time at bat. And, as the third out was an appeal his illegal touch of first base is the third out of the inning. Again, no run can score if the third out is made before the batter-runner legally touched first base.

Tim.

[bossman72]

FED says no run on the BOO

Check out case book 7.2.1 C

[mcrowder]

We have some really smart people saying some really dumb things.

Why does it keep coming up that the improper batter was put out at all (much less the mentions of when). The improper batter was not put out at all!!! The PROPER batter was called out on appeal for the 3rd out BEFORE HE REACHED FIRST BASE (heck... before he reached the batters box!). How much more crystal could this be. The confusion above stems solely from the fact that you guys are calling the wrong player out.

[UmpJM]

Though I hate to "taint" his conclusions by the support of a mere coach, I am squarely with Tim (BigUmp56) in his assertions on the question - though my train of thought is slightly different.

4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES. (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter runner before he touches first base;

Rather than saying the improper batter's touch of 1B was "illegal" and the third out of the inning, I would say that, upon proper appeal, the proper batter became the 3rd out of the inning, and he definitely never touched 1B.

Since (I assume) we would all agree that if the improper batter had hit a single, the run would be nullified upon a proper BOOT appeal; and that we would further agree that if a proper batter had been called out on appeal for missing 1B for the 3rd out of the inning, no run would score; then I can see no support for suggesting that the run would score in the sitch posed by UMP25 in the initial post of this thread.

Further, (and I think I'm still on the same page with Tim here) I would further assert that the R3 would not score if the BOOT appeal out were only the 1st or 2nd out of the half inning rather than the 3rd out.

The rule says:

...NOTE: If a runner advances, while the improper batter is at bat, on a stolen base, balk, wild pitch or passed ball, such advance is legal. ...

As Tim correctly points out, the R3 advanced after the improper batter had completed his at bat, not "...while the improper batter (was) at bat."

6.04
A batter has legally completed his time at bat when he is put out or becomes a runner.

This reading is entirely consistent with the wording and intent of the rule. Namely, it is not illegal (i.e. there is no penalty) for sending an "out of turn" batter to the plate. It is illegal for an out of turn batter to complete an "at bat" - if the defense appeals.

JM

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I still say the run counts, and that PWL is correct.

Oh my.....SDS agrees with PWL. Isn't that one of the
signs of the apocalypse ?????

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by umpduck11

Oh my.....SDS agrees with PWL. Isn't that one of the
signs of the apocalypse ?????

Before you head to the bomb shelter Duck, I am on record as recanting this statement. I now believe that the run does not count.

It's all so confusing, can someone PLEASE HELP!!! Oh, the humanity.......