Umpire attacked

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Do you feel that those are the only grounds for a forfeit?

Garth,

While I do believe the conditions I mentioned are grounds for a forfeit, I do not believe they are the only grounds for a forfeit. I'll admit that it's beyond me to articulate a comprehensive statement of what would constitute grounds for a forfeit.

The best I can come up with would be along the lines of...

repeated blatant acts which demonstrate a complete disregard for the rules of the game in a way that precludes the game from being fairly played.

For example, if one team's pitchers repeatedly intentionally threw at the other team's batters or one team's runners repeatedly committed malicious contact on the other team's fielders.

Of course, I would also consider the use of ineligible players as possible grounds for a forfeit, which doesn't exactly fit my description.

I'm sure there are other cases people could suggest that my statement wouldn't cover.

JM

[btdt]

If it isn’t appropriate to forfeit when an umpire is physically attacked by a player then it never is.

Physically attacking a person is a crime every where I have been. Why would criminal behavior not be a bases for forfeit?

If physically attacking an official carries the same penalty as cussing ….. something is very wrong.

As for not wanting to penalize the players and coaches ….. this is a team game and the team reaps the rewards together and it used to be they accepted the penalties together. Anything less is enabling bad things to happen. Life is tough, better to learn it now rather than after robbing a 7-11.

There could be absolutely no reason NOT to forfeit the game. Making excuses and reasons on the other side is just enabling future problems by sending the message that that the penalties are only a minor inconvenience.

#1:Forfeit the darn game and perhaps in the future coaches will institute control over their teams.

#2: Call the police and have the young man arrested and prosecuted.

#3: Anything less just reinforces that there are no consequences

Don’t give them amnesty. The level of the game, or the importance of the game, should not come into decision making. This is a high school game and you are supposed to be building future citizens, not enabling criminal behavior. Someone, sometime has to teach them that in life, “ for negative actions there are negative consequences”. It sure is obvious no one has taught them that so far.

As for kicking the kid off the team and other punishments…. not any of my business …. My business is on the playing field and does not extend outside the fences or after the game.

[Texas Aggie]

I don't work baseball, but I do basketball and football in Texas, and the rule of thumb is to NEVER "forfeit" a game, but "suspend" the game. That gives the district committee (or UIL) the opportunity to make a decision and take you out of the loop.

Now, when I say "never," I'm talking about situations like this, not situations where a team refuses to play, walks off the field, etc. Of course, even then, you can err on the side of absolute safety by telling the other coach the game is suspended and writing as much on the lineup card and scorebook (or whereever you need to).

[blueskysblue]

I am in total agreement that there is never any excuse for a player, regardless of age and / or level of play, to ever assault or batter an official. No excuse! Most states now have felony level laws against assault / battery of an official, but officials and schools have to file the appropriate complaint to initiate and then probably testify in court when its time. Trying to "lock up" a kid, especially after we have all been indoctrinated by state associations about how we are part of the educational process, the game is for the kids, etc., etc., is not something many officials / administrators will do.

Separate from this issue, let me ask about the original Balk Call. It most baseball I've officiated and watched, a pitcher goes to the set position with his pivot foot in front of the rubber and his nonpivot foot in front, with hands separated. AFTER getting the signal, the pitcher resets the nonpivot foot back toward the rubber while bringing their hands together. So, was the original call truly a Balk, or not? Did the pitcher actually fully set before the foot movement? Guess you had to be there.

[BellevueUMp]

For a while, I thought I was the only one in favor of forfeiting the game. I agree with the fundamental premise of trying to keep players/managers in the game, make every effort to allow a game to continue, etc., but there has to be a reasonable limit to things. I'm not criticizing the officiating crew that was on the scene, but I would not have continued the game had I been in either umpire's position.

Just my $.02.

[DG]

I already replied on whether a forfeit should have been made, but I based my comment on the assumption that it could in this situation, per Carl's suggestion.

"Could you forfeit this game because of that behavior?"

"Assume the answer is "yes.""

Now I am interested in what rule would be applied to forfeit the game. This does not appear to be a condition specifically mentioned in the rules to permit a forfeit. Any ideas?

[BellevueUMp]

DG, you make a very good point. I did some checking in the NFHS book, & here's what I came up with:

Rule 4-4-1 is written (at least the way I'm reading it) to address actions by the entire team. From that, my inference is the closest you could get would be 4-4-1(e), based on the requirement to address profanity, unsportsmanlike behavior, etc. at the plate conference. I also think that you would have some difficulties with appeals or other challenges to this.

That said, I think that 10-2-3(f,g) might actually be appropriate here. For a game forfeited under this rule, you'd need some very strong support at the state level. Probably the most effective way to do this would be for the state-level association to advise the different school divisions in some sort of a 'shot across the bow.' Specifically, this could take the form of an unequivocal message to the effect of, 'If this continues, umpires will either develop a hair-trigger for ejecting players/coaches, or schools identified as having problems with compliance will be removed from the schedule.'

For those who think that's an extreme response, I agree. Something like that shouldn't be hauled out unless it's absolutely necessary. I also believe that the above is not the only solution to the problem. I'm sure others have some great ideas on how to address this, and I look forward to reading them.

Just my $.02.

[blueskysblue]

Personally, I would be more inclined to suspend the game and defer an actual forfeiture to the State Association. They may have knowledge about similar situations / behaviors involving the same (or different) team(s) that I do not have. A suspended game can always be resumed or forfeited, while a forfeiture may be more difficult to reverse.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Rule 10-2-2 should cover it sufficiently. Plus, anyone assaulting an official here goes to jail, juvenile or adult.

[BellevueUMp]

After reading the replies by blueskyblue & SanDiegoSteve, I'd have to agree that suspension of the game would probably be the best avenue. It gets both officials out of a very volatile situation & also keeps you from being the 'bad guy' (well, at least this time!).

Thanks.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by blueskysblue

Separate from this issue, let me ask about the original Balk Call. It most baseball I've officiated and watched, a pitcher goes to the set position with his pivot foot in front of the rubber and his nonpivot foot in front, with hands separated. AFTER getting the signal, the pitcher resets the nonpivot foot back toward the rubber while bringing their hands together. So, was the original call truly a Balk, or not? Did the pitcher actually fully set before the foot movement? Guess you had to be there.

No, you don't have to be there. The description is of an event that happens regularly in prep ball. The pitcher has leaned in for his sign, agreed, and moves his foot to come to the set position, then changes his mind and drops his foot back down. It's a "let's go, wait a minute" motion and is a balk anywhere, anytime.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

The events happened Friday night, 31 March.

"Could you forfeit this game because of that behavior?"

Assume the answer is "yes."

My question: Should the PU forfeit?

Papa C IMO the first thing that should have been done is call 911. I am assuming Texas is like NY.

Over the years our assignor has told us that the days of "being Mr. Nice guy" are over. We do not need to take abuse. As coaches/ players/fans see people doing a night in jail plus "other" type fines should cause them to think before they act in the future.

I have a question?

It has been my experience that unless a kid has emotional type problems (and even if he does), that this isn't the first time this kid acted that way. Did "other" umpires turn a "Blind eye" in dealing with this kid before. I am not saying that he "clocked" someone before but perhaps he was restrained in prior games or yelled obsentities at officials and nothing was done.

Now to the ultimate question? Should the PU have forfeited the game.

My answer YES

and if the "powers that be" overturned the forfeit, then the umpires association of that league should stick together and refuse to service them again.

Now to Reality and the Major Problem:

As we have seen Umpires are their own worst enemies, meaning there will almost always be some umpire or some umpire association willing to take the Game FEE and service the League. We are seeing this now with the minor League umpires. Someone will do those games.

Therefore, if ALL umpires or umpire associations are not on the "same page" incidents such as yours will happen.

Pete Booth

[DG]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Rule 10-2-2 should cover it sufficiently. Plus, anyone assaulting an official here goes to jail, juvenile or adult.

10-2-2 just gives sole authority to UIC to forfeit a game, but it does not say what conditions merit forfeit. Most of the reasons to forfeit are covered in 4-4-1. Without whipping out 10-3g, state another rule that specifically gives the UIC the rule he needs to call a forfeit for this situation. And while the player should go to jail, I am not aware of a rule that says that a game shall be forfeited if any game participants have been arrested.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

10-2-2 just gives sole authority to UIC to forfeit a game, but it does not say what conditions merit forfeit. Most of the reasons to forfeit are covered in 4-4-1. Without whipping out 10-3g, state another rule that specifically gives the UIC the rule he needs to call a forfeit for this situation. And while the player should go to jail, I am not aware of a rule that says that a game shall be forfeited if any game participants have been arrested.

Excuse me while I whip this out.........10-2-3g.

There is nothing written in the rules about a player shooting someone either, but I'm sure that would stop the game in its tracks anyway. This rule lets us rule on anything not specifically covered in the rules, so we lean on it in this case. It is the FED equivalent to 9.01(C), better known as the God rule.

Whether the game was suspended or forfieted, in no way would I have continued to umpire it.

[DG]

I asked you not to to whip out 10-3g (although I now recognize I left out the 2 as in 10-2-3g. But you knew what I was talking about and did it anyway. Nobody got shot so your example of a potential use of 10-2-3g is irrelevant. An umpire got pushed to the ground by a player already ejected. I got my answer from you. You would use 10-2-3g to forfeit the game, and I would not.