R1 steals to second base-another bad call

[David B]

Well around where I've called Bronco was pretty serious baseball and we always used a two or three man crew.

So that's not so bad of a place to learn.

As far as the positioning, our local group recommends B position and I teach that position because that's what the state wants.

However, in the summer I often move to C. Haven't heard a snip from any coaches.

The only coaches who will be complaining (IMHO) will be if the umpire in C is not paying attention and misses the obvious calls.

I mean it's just not that hard to call a pick off whether you are in B, C, D the stands or getting a drink at the concessions.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by BJ Moose
And then, some work in the real world of high level amateur baseball (kids that shave).

Let's follow the career of the ambitious umpire working his way up the political ladder of his large association. Lets watch him make 1st base pickoff calls from "C" with R1 only. It won't matter a hoot if they are RIGHT or WRONG... all we know is the managers will notice the umpire a mile away from the play and hoot and hollar and have a spastic fit. And after hearing that "I have a better angle", will be tossed due to their expletive deleted response.

And our hero will work 1 or 2 more Senior Babe or Connie Mack games... then, mysteriously, will only find himself assigned to 1 man Bronco games in OuterEastJesus. Have you ever seen the Mom's in OuterEastJesus? Yee gods....

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
Lets [sic] watch him make 1st base pickoff calls from "C" with R1 only. It won't matter a hoot if they are RIGHT or WRONG... all we know is the managers will notice the umpire a mile away from the play and hoot and hollar and have a spastic fit. And after hearing that "I have a better angle", will be tossed due to their expletive deleted response.

[/B][/QUOTE]

---

I've had this discussion -- or one like it -- many times. Regardless of which side I take, someone espousing the party line of the PRO school takes me to task.

Situation: R2 heads for third on a throw across the diamond from F5. Some (PRO grads) says that both calls belong to the BU. I argue the PU should take the play at third.

"But, no, Carl," I am told. "Where have you been? Angle v distance, you know: The field umpire does not need to get NEAR the play at third; all he needs is the correct angle, and that's easy!" Result: Carl "loses" that argument in the eyes of the wannabees.

Now I suggest that an umpire in C has a much better ANGLE for the pick-off at first because he can cheat closer to the plate without destroying his perfect 90-degree ANGLE for the steal of second.

"But, no, Carl," I am told. "Don't you know that an umpire cannot call a pick-off play at first from that distance? Every coach will jump on him. He'll wind up in a permanent one-man 'crew.' Distance is everything!" Result: Carl "loses" that argument in the eyes of the wannabees.

I have always suggested four steps toward improving the mechanics in any association:

1. Convince just one top dog -- and the rest is easy.
2. Ask your assignor for permission to try out some of the "risky" mechanics on small diamonds, where the umpire is already closer than usual to plays. The Mustang Field is ideal for that.
3. Remember to use the accepted mechanics until you have someone's ok.
4. Finally, ask whoever is in charge where you should stand with runners on the corners. All roads lead to Rome, they say. If he says Position C with runners on the corners, then you're three quaters of the way across the Tiber.

Aside from worrying about my candidate umpire's future, what's your thinking about having a better angle at first from the C-side of the diamond? How do you feel about B v C with a runner on first only?

[Rich]

....mainly because they are opposite yours.

I DO stand in B with R1&R3.
I stand in B with every baserunning situation EXCEPT TWO:
(1) R2 only
(2) R1 & R2.

YES, I use B with R3 only and with R2 & R3 and with bases loaded. With R2 and R3 and with R3 only, I use a deeper B, halfway between the traditional 2-man and the deep B used in 3- and 4-man.

I don't have a problem calling the steals at second, EXCEPT for one play where I think B gives me an edge: The throw, wide to the first base side, where F4 or F6 has to catch and swipe in one motion. I think I get a better view of the play from behind.

I also like the look of the pickoff at first from B, whenever I can get it. The pickoff at SECOND is far easier in B.

I also truly hate C. I've been debating never working C and covering even the steal of third from B, as soon as I find the right game to try it and practice it in.

Carl is right. It IS "easier" to get in position for the steal of second from C. In my earlier post, I described how you need to work hard to get in position from B. EVEN WITH THAT, I still prefer B because I get the view of the play that I like.

Look, mechanics are like driving a car. When learning, schools teach one way to do things. But as you put years and good experience on, you can change things to suit your preferences and abilities.

Also, Moose doth protest too much. I worked a year in his association, and nobody gives a flying flip if you are in A, B, C, D, E, F, or G. Nobody in the association, nobody who you partner with, and certainly not the coaches, who are more concerned with the guy behind the plate squeezing his pitcher. I worked the above set of "non-approved" mechanics the entire year (only year) I was there, and certainly didn't suffer in the least bit.

Rich

[Blaine Gallant]

I must concur Rich.

Hell, Moose has created his *own* mechanic regarding coverage on fly balls in the V or cone or whatever you wish to call it. Apparently , THIS will not slow his ascent up the the Moose passage in the Rockies!

Blaine

[BJ Moose]

Does anyone know the english letters to symbolize the Moose's cry of despair! Something like BLLCKKKEWWRRCKK!

Now really.. let's not mislead these nice people. I did NOT create my own mechanics. (Did I?)

Yikes, I upset the Bronco people. With all due respect to other areas of the country.. was simply making the point (poorly it seems).. that making up non standard mechanics "could" keep you in my associations lower levels... and Bronco is simply the lowest level (13s) that we do. But fine lads they are!

Frony really does not have the experience in the Assoc to make a blanket statement. It does matter for people that care how they are percieved, or that want to advance.

Here is a Stick. This side of stick (Position B) is nice and clean. THAT side of stick (Position C) is covered with "youknowwhat". I simply state I care how my hands smell after the game. I prefer to make all the right calls AND smell clean and fresh, as opposed to all the right calls, and smell like the pasture.

Finally, I would even GRANT CC his geometry as to the view from "C"..but it may be splitting hairs anyway. It is almost a SO WHAT? The "book" says B... the Assoc says B... current pro teaching says B, and 100% of Assoc (mine) work B. So if you don't work B you look like a knucklehead who has never been trained.

Oh.... and R2 only... when working with anyone OTHER than the biggest Crustiest Dog... I will either advise.. or suggest that PU come up to help at 3rd after the lookback and throw to 1st. But this is a real life OPTIONAL mechanic, use of which will not get you busted back to _____________insert low level league here.

Originally posted by Blaine Gallant

Hell, Moose has created his *own* mechanic regarding coverage on fly balls in the V or cone or whatever you wish to call it. Apparently , THIS will not slow his ascent up the the Moose passage in the Rockies!

Blaine

I do the same thing that Rich does> I work "B" most of the time, note Rich's exceptions. I've gotten a lot of my association doing it but we tell them it's optional.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Papa C the problem I find with being in the C position with r1 is as follows:

1. I am in much better position to call the back end of a DP in B than in C, especially on a banger which is the majority of cases.

2. From C it is more difficult to help out the PU on check swings, ball hitting batter in box, etc. In B, the view of the plate area and the batter is much clearer.

Finally, the majority of plays in a baseball game are at first base. We are obviously closer in position B than in C.

I have experimented with both positions and for me I prefer B. If you follow the ball from F2's arm right to the base, I find that the ball will take me to the base and I am in as good position as any.

The problem with B, is many umpires take there eye off of the ball (when F2 still has it in his possession) to find the runner and fielder and IMO that's where they get into trouble. If you keep your eyes on the ball (which we are taught) and follow right into F4 or F6's glove - that will take you right to the play.

As with everything in life, it involves practice.

Pete Booth





Pete Booth

[Blaine Gallant]

Pete:

This is interesting, becasue everything you like from B, I like from C.

I think most of this comes from working 3-man most of the time. Over time, I have been in C when working the inside of hte diamond. When I go back to 2-man, I have a hard time working the steal, DP, etc. from B. My view is strange and I find the play is not completely in front of me. I am having to turn with the ball coming over my shoulder on the steal and the DP.

Especially on a DP, I find from C you can turn with the throw to 2nd and have the play at second and the play at first within your field of vision, at least periferally (sp?).

I have experimented both ways, and I like the C side, again probably because it is what I am used to.

Blaine

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Blaine Gallant

This is interesting, becasue everything you like from B, I like from C.

Blaine, I guess it all boils down to style. I am constantly experimenting with new ideas, both on my own and from others. As long as we get the majority of calls correct, thats the main point.

Bangers are Bangers and one side will not be happy whether the call is from B or C. As we all know that's the "nature of the beast."

If things go ok, I plan on attending the 2 man clinic that will be offered in Atlanta Georgia during the second week of February. It will be interesting to see what they teach.

As a side note: except for playoffs and sectionals, practically all my work is 2 man.

Thanks for the feedback

Pete Booth

[Blaine Gallant]

Bangers are Bangers and one side will not be happy whether the call is from B or C. As we all know that's the "nature of the beast."

I agree with your assertion about someone not being happy. The arguement I love is that I was too far away. Here is the conversation:

Coach: How can you make that call from there.

Me: I am in great position coach, go away.

Coach: You are too far away.

Me: Coach, could you see it all the way from the bench?

Coach: Yes.

Me: Obviously, then I was close enough. Now, go away.

After being duped, he realizes it goes nuts and gets ejected! See you can have your cake and eat it too.

Life is good.

Blaine

[blarson]

For what it's worth, here is what works for me:

I hear "He's going!" Once I see the cather cock his arm back, I take my first step back w/ my right foot, the as the ball is released, I come back w/ my left, all the while facing the ball, (I start square to the batter, at this point my body is faced so the left should is facing the plate. Depending on the level of ball and the velocity of the throw is how many steps I can get towards 2nd. (just don't get too close) I let the ball turn my shoulders and eyes towards the play. I get as close as I can get to 90` but I never get quite there. I don't alway get locked w/ my hands on knees yet, but I at least lock my knees and get the 'camera' steady. If I need to 'look closer' to the play, especially on an out call, I cheat a step or two towards the play while pausing to make sure possesion of the ball was kept or when doing my mechanic.

What I've found this year on pick-off and/or steals that I thought I missed, I usually rushed the call. Try slowing it down and see if that helps. I'm working on slowing it down alot this year and almost everyone I'm unsure of, in retrospect I rushed.

Bob

[Gre144]

I was told by the guy that trained me that with R1 and R3 you should always be in position B. Is that true?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Gre144
I was told by the guy that trained me that with R1 and R3 you should always be in position B. Is that true?

That is not the customary postion for runners on the corner.

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

That is not the customary postion for runners on the corner.

But he suggested the B position because he said you're closer to the calls for a double play.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

That is not the customary postion for runners on the corner.

Prior to 1991 (?), the pro schools taught that with runners on the corners, the BU should be in position C. In 1991, the changed the mechanics to B. (I could be off by a year or two but I am certain that the current position is B for runners on the corners.)

This is the pro school mechanics only. FED mechanics could be different but since my association does not allow their use, I am not sure what the current FED doctrine is.

Peter