Balk or Illegal Pitch

[abergman]

Thought of this one yesterday in my American Legion Game. Pitcher licked his fingers in the circle so my partner said,"That's a ball went to his mouth". The batter-runner was half way to first after a walk at the time. The offensive team wanted a balk because there was men on base. I explained to them that it is a ball no matter what because it is rule 8.02 instead of 8.05. My question is, what if the pitcher starts a pitch or illegally pitches in some way before the batter-runner gets to first? Do you have a balk or an illegal pitch (ball on next batter)? Kind of stumper because the batter is awarded first but does has he acquired it?

Thanks for your opinions ahead of time

Hopefully as a PU you aren't going to let him get anywhere near that situation. But if by some strange occurance it happens it would probably be a balk. I would be inclined to want to penalize the defense for a DAP.

[batterup]

American Legion follows OBR. It is rule 8.02 as you say and it is never a balk unless the pitcher is standing on the rubber when he does it.

[Gee]

Originally posted by batterup
American Legion follows OBR. It is rule 8.02 as you say and it is never a balk unless the pitcher is standing on the rubber when he does it.

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Never a balk means never a balk. If the pitcher is standing within the 18 foot circle, which includes the rubber, when he wets his fingers, it is a ball. Never a balk. OBR. G.

[batterup]

First of all 8.02 reads like this. A pitcher cannot lick his fingers when in the 18 foot circle SURROUNDING the pitching rubber. That is when it is a ball. Once the pitcher is on the rubber different rules apply. Look to 8.05.

It is a balk when touching the plate the pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to deliver.

It is also a balk to remove one hand from the ball without delivering a pitch or throwing to a base.

In short once on the rubber you can't be licking fingers, adjusting hats, or things like that without being called for a balk when runners are on base. You must pitch with one continuous motion without interruption.

[Gee]

Originally posted by batterup
First of all 8.02 reads like this. A pitcher cannot lick his fingers when in the 18 foot circle SURROUNDING the pitching rubber. That is when it is a ball. Once the pitcher is on the rubber different rules apply. Look to 8.05.

It is a balk when touching the plate the pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to deliver.

It is also a balk to remove one hand from the ball without delivering a pitch or throwing to a base.

In short once on the rubber you can't be licking fingers, adjusting hats, or things like that without being called for a balk when runners are on base. You must pitch with one continuous motion without interruption.

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I believe you are reading that rule wrong. When you first go on the rubber with one hand by your sideand the glove hand at your waste you are in set STANCE 8.02.

Let's say you have the ball in the glove, If you then wet your fingers, that is a ball, not a balk.

Then if you take your signals, stretch and come to a stop, you are now in SET position 8.05. If you try to lick your fingers from the set position then you have to separate your hands and THAT is the balk. You never get the chance to lick your fingers withought before the balk is called.

Same thing with 8.05(k) If the pitcher, while touching his plate, intentionally or accidentaly drops the ball, it is a balk. Not true.

When the pitcher starts the STRETCH and drops the ball it is nothing 8.02. However, after he comes to set and starts the PITCH and he then drops the ball, balk 8.05. Don't get the two rules confused.G

[Edited by Gee on Jun 3rd, 2001 at 10:00 AM]

[Thom Coste]

Originally posted by Gee

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Same thing with 8.05(k) If the pitcher, while touching his plate, intentionally or accidentaly drops the ball, it is a balk. Not true.

When the pitcher starts the stretch and drops the ball it is nothing 8.02. However, after he comes to set and starts the pitch and he then drops the ball, balk 8.05. Don't get the two rules confused.G

[Edited by Gee on Jun 3rd, 2001 at 09:25 AM]

You both have this wrong.

Batterup, don't be confusing Federation restrictions with OBR. Under Fed rules,once the pitcher intentionally contacts the rubber restrictions begin. That means he is not permitted to fiddle, scratch, adjust his cap, wipe off catcher's signs, etc. These are all illegal acts because of the restriction of movement and the requirement to "go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion." However, OBR, while it does require the pitcher to go to the set position "without interruption and in one continuous motion" (8.01(b)), does not have the strict interpretataion limiting the pitcher's movements. Sure, we've all seen it called, but mostly the pitcher is not restricted by the umpires until he actually starts to go set. Primarily the difference stems from the fact that the OBR balk rule is intended to prevent illegal deception of a base runner(s), whereas the Fed balk rule does not take intent and deception into consideration.

Gee, you are mistaken about dropping the ball. If, with a runner(s) on base and while in contact with the rubber, the pitcher drops the ball, it is a balk (8.05(k)). Period. It is a balk. 8.01(d) applies only with no runners.

[batterup]

I agree it's not lie NFHS. We allow more movement in OBR but since the original question was about licking fingers I didn't want to get into all of that. Let's go back to the original. Licking your fingers is a ball when not on the rubber and a balk with people on base when you are on the rubber.

In OBR it's always a ball unless you're already set. Then it has nothing to do with licking your fingers but movement without pitching. As far as going to your mouth you can't do it inside the 18 ft circle. FED and NCAA it's not on the rubber. Anywhere on the mound with or without runners it's a ball.

[Gee]

First off, I do not do Fed rules. They have been banned in Boston.

Second, As I have said. Licking your fingers in the 18 foot circle,which includes the pitching plate, is never a balk, it is a ball. It is impossible to lick your fingers AFTER you come to a set position because once you try it you must separate your hands and THAT IS A BALK.

I'll also stick with what I said concerning the dropped ball. You can't call a balk on that until the pitcher is in a legal pitching position. That only comes when he is ready to pitch.

He is not ready to pitch until he is set. Further, I said when you drop the ball during the stretch it is NOTHING, not a ball, NOTHING. 8.01(d) only applies AFTER the pitcher is set and not during preliminary motions as in stretching. If you don't buy that we'll have to A2d on it. i.e. Agree to disagree. G

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Gee
I'll also stick with what I said concerning the dropped ball. You can't call a balk on that until the pitcher is in a legal pitching position. That only comes when he is ready to pitch.

He is not ready to pitch until he is set. Further, I said when you drop the ball during the stretch it is NOTHING, not a ball, NOTHING. 8.01(d) only applies AFTER the pitcher is set and not during preliminary motions as in stretching. If you don't buy that we'll have to A2d on it. i.e. Agree to disagree. G

But, Gee, the dropped ball situation would be a balk under 8.05(k). Whether he's in a stretch or a set doesn't matter. If he drops the ball while touching the plate, it is a balk with runners on base.

[Edited by Jim Porter on Jun 4th, 2001 at 02:25 AM]

[Gee]

One last time. The pitcher asks for a new ball and is given one. He is facing center field and rubs up the ball.

He just happens to be standing on the rubber and drops the ball with men on base. Are you going to call that a balk?

From what you say, you are. I'm not, simply because the pitcher was not in a legal pitching position when he dropped it. OBR 8.01 describes only two legal pitching positions, 8.01(a) and 8.01(b).

Adendum.

Just checked JEA and 8.05(k). Jim Evans states, "If a pitcher has STARTED HIS DELIVERY when the ball slips out of his hand, rule 8.01(d) should be enforced......" G.

[Edited by Gee on Jun 4th, 2001 at 09:09 AM]

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by abergman

Thought of this one yesterday in my American Legion Game. Pitcher licked his fingers in the circle so my partner said,"That's a ball went to his mouth".

IMO, this is one of those Nit-Pick'n rules, that I don't enforce unless one of the coaches complains. Most of us do not umprie at the major league level, where F1 could throw the "spitter" and make the ball move more than it's supposed to.

In most leagues that we umpire, we probably get 3 / 4 new balls tops. By the time we get to the 5th inning, there's scuff marks, dirt, mud etc. all over the ball, and we are worrying about F1 going to his mouth.

Unless your umpiring a league that supplies a steady diet of brand new baseballs, I say do not go "looking for boogers".

The rule was put in for PRO Pitchers who can do "tricks" with a baseball.

Pete Booth

[mick]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by abergman

Thought of this one yesterday in my American Legion Game. Pitcher licked his fingers in the circle so my partner said,"That's a ball went to his mouth".

IMO, this is one of those Nit-Pick'n rules, that I don't enforce unless one of the coaches complains....

Pete Booth

Pete,
By calling "that pitcher" on that rule, your partner taught that pitcher a rule and he may not do it again.
Thus, the next time he's on the mound, another ump may not have to make the decision to call, or pass.
If the pitcher had been called on that in a game before your game, you wouldn't have had to question your partner.
mick

[batterup]

8.05j refers to a pitching position. 8.05k does not refer to a pitching position for a reason. It is not part of the rule. Historically I could go into the reasons why but let me simply state this.

You umpire games according to the level of the game. "Gee" says he doesn't do Fed games but he brings up a situation you would see in high school. Unknowingly standing on the rubber, looking at centerfield, rubbing the ball. And I suppose he was also wearing a batting glove.

I have never seen a pitcher do that in the college level or up. If he did I would probably call it a balk and both I and the pitcher would have a good laugh.

"Abergman"'s original question was at the Legion level. I hope he's not confused by all of this. He's looking for help at that level and we're talking about moves, (rubbing ball looking at centerfield while on the rubber) that should be corrected at instructional level baseball.

Legion is not an instructional league.

It is a ball when not on the rubber and in the dirt area when you lick your fingers. It is a balk on the rubber, not because the rules prohibit licking your fingers on the rubber but because you can't make those kind of stupid moves, (known as feinting or deceiving the runner), while you are on the rubber.

And lastly, if 8.05k was only to be applied when in a legal pitching position, it would say that instead of while touching his plate.