Quote:
Originally posted by Gee
Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Porter
Well, I'm sorry, Gee, but you are as wrong as wrong can be and you know it. You quoted Evans out of context on purpose to bolster your argument. Why did you do that? It's okay to be wrong sometimes. Why not just say, "Gosh I was wrong," and get on with it?
Under 8.05(k) in Jim Evans Annotated, the very first sentence under Customs and Usage reads, "Once the pitcher assumes a position on the rubber with his pivot foot, he will be penalized should he drop the ball." (my emphasis)
The penalty under 8.05(k) is a balk.
You are correct, however, that 8.01(d) is only enforced when the pitcher has, in fact, started his delivery.
So, Gee's mistakes aside, here's the breakdown of the correct rulings:
- 1. Runners on base - a balk is called should the pitcher drop the ball while in contact with the rubber (whether he has begun his delivery or not and whether it crosses the foul line or not).
2. No runners on base - if the pitcher drops the ball before the start of his delivery, it is nothing.
3. No runners on base - if the pitcher starts his delivery and the ball slips from his hand, it is a ball if it crosses the foul line.
4. No runners on base - if the pitcher starts his delivery and the ball slips from his hand, if it fails to cross the foul line it is declared a, "no pitch."
|
-----------------------------
Jim,
First off. If I knew I was wrong when I posted it I would not have posted it. Hope that clears that up. Please allow this to be a discussion and not an argument.
You are correct about the first sentence under Customs and Usage as to what it says.
Now if you read the Historical Notes in that same section you will read:
"The 1920 rule elucidated the rulmakers intent even more. A balk shall be called when "...the pitcher, in the act of delivering the ball to the batsman or throwing to first base, drops the ball, either intentionally or accidentally..." This interpretation is the basis of today's rule".
That means to me that the pitcher is in legal position when he drops it and not before.
Simply by reading that, then the section in Customs and Usage that I originally quoted, I do not think it would be out of line to interpret his first sentence in customs and Usage that says, "... when he assumes a position..." to mean a "LEGAL" position, That is exactly what I did. I still feel that way.
There was a discussion on EteamZ quite a while ago, my position was upheld by Jim Booth at that time, a pretty good rules guy. Next time you talk to him, ask him about it. G [/B]
|
Gee,
Stop referencing only out of context quotations from Jim Evans to bolster your arguments and I won't get peeved. I find that to be a bush league tactic in the game of interpreting baseball rules. You knew that Jim Evans clearly explained that, with runners on base, dropping the ball while in contact with the pitcher's plate is a balk. You chose to omit the quote because it didn't support your position. I don't like that. I'll be glad to discuss any baseball rules with you as long as you report the whole picture. Yellow journalism is one thing I detest in this world. And you're a smart enough person not to have to resort to such tactics.
As far as the historical information, you have reported it correctly. The most important sentence in that quote is, "This interpretation is the basis of today's rule." The 1920 rule is only the
basis for today's rule, not the actual rule. This is not 1920, it's 2001.
Jim Evans is quite clear regarding the differences, here. 8.01(d) refers to the start of the delivery, and 8.05(k) refers to a pitcher in contact with the rubber. They are two different rules, Gee, and you're considering them like they are the same. They are certainly related,
but they are two separate and distinct rules.
You do not have the luxury of adding words to Jim Evans Annotated so it agrees with your assertions. Nonetheless, let's examine your addition of the word "legal" in there. For, what's illegal about a preliminary motion before coming set? Nothing! So, a pitcher in contact is indeed in a legal position. That doesn't change the interpretation one iota! The pitcher would still drop the ball while in contact with the rubber - that's a balk. That's what the rule says, and that's what JEA says.
If Jim Booth supported what you are saying here, then Jim Booth is wrong, too. He might be a good rules guy, but he certainly would've blown that one!