PBUC , J/R, and Evans

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

No Garth, you are mistaken by many more than a couple years. In 1996, an official rule change took place in regards to the strike zone, to wit:

"The Official Playing Rules Committee has adopted changes in Rule 2.00, Strike Zone, which are underlined.

Rule 2.00 The Strike Zone is the area that is over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the mid-point between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determine from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball."

This changed from "the top of the knee." The mid-point for the upper limit had already previously been changed from the old "armpits" upper limit. I forget what year that was.

By the way Garth, I didn't mean it changed every year, I meant it seemed like it was the only thing that ever changed.

Steve

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Nov 17th, 2005 at 08:58 PM]

Forgive my memory lapse. My amazement that you might be suggesting that the strike zone changed annually moved me to post prior to putting my brain in gear.

I do find, interestingly, that a vast minority (is that an oxymoron?) of coaches, players and umpires do not have clue as to what the "hollow beneath the knee" refers to.

In case anyone cares, here's a history of the rule changes for the strike zone:

1996

The Strike Zone is expanded on the lower end, moving from the top of the knees to the hollow beneath the knees.

1988

The Strike Zone is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the top of the knees. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.

1969

The Strike Zone is that space over home plate which is between the batter's armpits and the top of his knees when he assumes a natural stance. The umpire shall determine the Strike Zone according to the batter's usual stance when he swings at a pitch.

1963

The Strike Zone is that space over home plate which is between the top of the batter's shoulders and his knees when he assumes his natural stance. The umpire shall determine the Strike Zone according to the batter's usual stance when he swings at a pitch.

1957

A strike is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire which:

(a) is struck at by the batter and is missed;
(b) enters the Strike Zone in flight and is not struck at;
(c) is fouled by the batter when he has less than two strikes at it;
(d) is bunted foul;
(e) touches the batter as he strikes at it;
(f) touches the batter in flight in the Strike Zone; or
(g) becomes a foul tip. Note:
(f) was added to the former rule and definition.

1950

The Strike Zone is that space over home plate which is between the batter's armpits and the top of his knees when he assumes his natural stance.

1910

With the bases unoccupied, any ball delivered by the pitcher while either foot is not in contact with the pitcher's plate shall be called a ball by the umpire.

1907

A fairly delivered ball is a ball pitched or thrown to the bat by the pitcher while standing in his position and facing the batsman that passes over any portion of the home base, before touching the ground, not lower than the batsman's knee, nor higher than his shoulder. For every such fairly delivered ball, the umpire shall call one strike.

An unfairly delivered ball is a ball delivered to the bat by the pitcher while standing in his position and facing the batsman that does not pass over any portion of the home base between the batsman's shoulder and knees, or that touches the ground before passing home base, unless struck at by the batsman. For every unfairly delivered ball the umpire shall call one ball.

1901

A foul hit ball not caught on the fly is a strike unless two strikes have already been called. Adopted by National League in 1901 and the American League in 1903.

1899

A foul tip by the batter, caught by the catcher while standing within the lines of his position is a strike.

1894

A strike is called when the batter makes a foul hit, other than a foul tip, while attempting a bunt hit that falls or rolls upon foul ground between home base and first or third bases.

1887

The batter can no longer call for a 'high' or 'low' pitch.

A (strike) is defined as a pitch that 'passes over home plate not lower than the batsman's knee, nor higher than his shoulders.

1876

The batsman, on taking his position, must call for a 'high,' 'low,' or 'fair' pitch, and the umpire shall notify the pitcher to deliver the ball as required; such a call cannot be changed after the first pitch is delivered.

High - pitches over the plate between the batter's waist and shoulders

Low - pitches over the plate between the batter's waist and at least one foot from the ground.

Fair - pitches over the plate between the batter's shoulders and at least one foot from the ground.

[BigUmp56]

. [/B][/QUOTE]

1) In many parts of the country, one umpire may be all that is available or budgeted. Rookies get the bottom of the barrel stuff as well as some nice treats. I've lived in places that had players moving farm equipment from the outfield just before the game. Those rookies were the only thing that allowed the game to happen.

I thought we were discussing sanctioned baseball games here Windy. I had no idea you were talking about pick up games in the middle of a farm. I would imagine that yes, it would be hard to be a rookie working a non sanctioned game for a bunch of pick up players.

2) I'd just rather not call the verbal obstruction in the first place. I am one of those picky umpires that likes to see the rule in writing before enforcing it.

You know where you can read the interpretation of this rule, you simply choose to dismiss it due to your personal beliefs.

3) I have called balks that required a chapter and verse to a manager with a degree in moronics. I've called it and had the guy come out to ask me to show him what the guy did wrong. Instead of acting like Marcel Marceau, I tell him what it was and if he wants to look up x-y-z, he can do it after the game is restarted. It shuts them up quickly when the guy in dark blue polyester knows what he's saying. Maybe you can't pull it off yet, but trust me, it works.,

You start out here by saying that you explain balks by chapter and verse. You finish this paragraph by saying you tell the manager what the pitcher did and to look up x-y-z.
Which is it? Do you explain it chapter and verse, or do you tell him to look it up?

4)Sometimes a simple look replaces a five minute rookie conversation.

Here again Windy, which is it? Should a rookie umpire just give a simple look, or should he give a five minute discertation on the rules? You said earlier that a rookie had better be able to explain himself and what rule he's enforcing. Now you are saying that a simple look will suffice.

Stop speaking in generalities

I pulled this little gem out of your post to remind you respectfully *NOT* to tell me what to say, or how to say it!
[/B][/QUOTE]


Tim.

[Edited by BigUmp56 on Nov 18th, 2005 at 11:30 AM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Tim C
Steve:

I have posted this about a million times:

Fed makes rules for four reasons:

1) Player safety -- While the players might have made it through other leagues while learning the game FED recognizes two important factors: a) High school aged player run from 14 to 19 years old and there is a serious difference in the size of players in any one FED game and b) all FED plyers have parents which in turn have lawyers.

2) Player participation -- FED wants the "high school sports expereince" to be all it can be for as many children as possible. Additonal ways for players to enter, leave and reenter open more opportunity for all types of players.

3) Game Speed-up rules -- Now I don't know one umpire that is against shorter games. There is an issue that in some pocket areas of the United States 7 inning high school games take over 3 hours to play -- ON A REGULAR BASIS.

4) Weakest Link Umpire Rules -- Sorry but not all umpires have the same capabilities and conditioning. FED has attempted to make rules that require less and less judgment and less and less physical activity from umpires. Face it, they have no idea if Smitty will be able to cover a triple from "A" because of physical limitations.

Now Steve, you seem to put a lot of importance in your local association. You name drop continually of players that enventually become MLB guys.

I doubt seriously if San Diego is that much better than many of the areas where noted posters on this site work.

"If" names of players are so important to you, every time I write F3 (insert Jon Olrude or Greg Brock), every time I say F4 (insert Harold Reynolds), every time I say F2 (insert Tom Lapkin), every time I saw F6 (insert Kevin Stocker), every time I saw F5 (insert John Elway) . . . I think you get my drift.

You mentioned once that you had worked over 40 players that went on the MLB baseball . . . well I worked over 60 does that mean Portland and Seattle are better than your area . . . nope, it just means I am older.

Tee

Tee:

You forgot Jason Bay. Oh, and you saw Olerude as F3? F1 here.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Garth, great job! But my favorite rule change was in 1881, when the umpire could toss spectators for booing and hissing at him.

Tee, I'm sure you've posted many things millions of times, and I know you're sick of repeating yourself, but I've never seen this one, so it's new to me. I was merely giving my opinion on the subject. I, too, call the games according to the set of rules being used. That doesn't mean I have to like them. By the way, I said over 30 current or former MLB players, including a few old timers in adult semi-pro leagues. Maybe it isn't real cool to name-drop, but these were highlights in my otherwise bland life, so I tend to elevate their importance. My bad.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
When Marcus Giles played Pony League, he did a Pete Rose take-out of the catcher. I mean he flew horizontal like Superman into this kid and knocked him into next week. He dislodged the ball, and was safe. I called him safe, then said, "Marcus, you're done, you know you can't do that." This game was played with OBR, with a slide or avoid Fed style rule. The only difference was that he was safe and gone, instead of out and gone, as he would have been under Fedlandia.

How old are the players in the Pony league? 13, 14 or so right?

So you know the players of these random teams well enough to call them by name when you eject them?

************

You like calling him safe and ejecting him over calling him out?

Say bottom of last inning, score is tied. Marcus is R3, and is trying to score after a caught fly ball to the outfield. F2 gets the ball well before Marcus is there. Marcus knows he will be out, his only chance is to plow over the catcher. He knocks the catcher over, is called safe and ejected. Who knows how bad the catcher got hurt.

In your Pony game, he is safe and ejected, but the game is over. So there is actually no penalty at all. In the Federation game, he is out, the run doesn't score. Shouldn't that be the way it is? How can you reward someone for running over the catcher?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by LDUB
[QUOTE
How old are the players in the Pony league? 13, 14 or so right?

So you know the players of these random teams well enough to call them by name when you eject them?

************

You like calling him safe and ejecting him over calling him out?

Say bottom of last inning, score is tied. Marcus is R3, and is trying to score after a caught fly ball to the outfield. F2 gets the ball well before Marcus is there. Marcus knows he will be out, his only chance is to plow over the catcher. He knocks the catcher over, is called safe and ejected. Who knows how bad the catcher got hurt.

In your Pony game, he is safe and ejected, but the game is over. So there is actually no penalty at all. In the Federation game, he is out, the run doesn't score. Shouldn't that be the way it is? How can you reward someone for running over the catcher?

Playing Devils Advocate, (God help us if this causes him to return to the board) look at it this way: since the offense - taking out the catcher - occurred after the runner safely, and without committing an offense, reached home, why should the run be taken away? Punish the offender for the offense and when the offense was committed.

[BigUmp56]

Mr. Benham,

Suppose R3 crashed F2 prior to reaching the plate.

Under OBR, would you call him out because at the point of initiating the contact, he was ejected and no longer can score, or do you just disallow the run without calling him out?

Obviously I'm not talking about pure OBR, but youth league modified OBR with attempt to avoid rules.

Tim.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
Mr. Benham,

Suppose R3 crashed F2 prior to reaching the plate.

Under OBR, would you call him out because at the point of initiating the contact, he was ejected and no longer can score, or do you just disallow the run without calling him out?

Obviously I'm not talking about pure OBR, but youth league modified OBR with attempt to avoid rules.

Tim.

I would suppose, as it does in the example I discussed above, it would depend on the organization's rules.

I was hypothesizing about the rationale behind PONY's rule, not creating one.

My understanding is that there are organizations that would treat that scenario in different ways and, again, I could play devil's advocate for either way.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by LDUB

How old are the players in the Pony league? 13, 14 or so right?

So you know the players of these random teams well enough to call them by name when you eject them?

************

You like calling him safe and ejecting him over calling him out?

Say bottom of last inning, score is tied. Marcus is R3, and is trying to score after a caught fly ball to the outfield. F2 gets the ball well before Marcus is there. Marcus knows he will be out, his only chance is to plow over the catcher. He knocks the catcher over, is called safe and ejected. Who knows how bad the catcher got hurt.

In your Pony game, he is safe and ejected, but the game is over. So there is actually no penalty at all. In the Federation game, he is out, the run doesn't score. Shouldn't that be the way it is? How can you reward someone for running over the catcher?

First, I had umpired Brian Giles in high school already, and know his parents quite well, and already knew Marcus from previous games. And, his dad was the coach. Also, when you are working high school, and there are scouts and representatives from major league teams in attendance, you tend to know who they are coming there to see. I know talent when I see it. It is an accepted fact that more pro ball players come from either Florida or California, than from any other state in the U.S. The fact that I mention a particular name of a player in my examples is my business. I certainly wouldn't mind if others listed the pro ball players that they officiated on the way up. I just makes one feel as though they may have had a very small role in that player's overall development. They may have learned a lesson, such as Marcus Giles may have on the day I ejected him. Now he probably wants to knock every catcher's teeth out when there is a play at the plate.

As far as that play at the plate goes, that is the way we were told to call it. Every league had different local rules, and this particular Pony league, at that time, said that the result of the play stands, but the offender is ejected. And ejected players could not play in their teams next game, so even if the play occurred on the last play of the game, the ejection had meaning. And, it was really pretty, if you like plays at the plate.

And, back in the Stone Age, when I played Pony league, we had no slide rules, or any other safety rules, Hell, our parents didn't even have to put us in seat belts in the car. Nobody gave two sh*ts about our safety in those days. Old School. Go play in the freeway. Children should be seen and not heard. You get the drift...

[LDUB]

Originally posted by GarthB
Playing Devils Advocate, (God help us if this causes him to return to the board) look at it this way: since the offense - taking out the catcher - occurred after the runner safely, and without committing an offense, reached home, why should the run be taken away? Punish the offender for the offense and when the offense was committed.

Are you refering to a FPSR violation? If not, why would the run not count if the the contact happened after the runner scored?

Originally posted by BigUmp56
Suppose R3 crashed F2 prior to reaching the plate.

Under OBR, would you call him out because at the point of initiating the contact, he was ejected and no longer can score, or do you just disallow the run without calling him out?

Obviously I'm not talking about pure OBR, but youth league modified OBR with attempt to avoid rules.

Most youth leagues have the rule that a malicious crash gets you ejected.

Legion also says that the runner should be called out, while LL (I think, I don't have a LL book) doesn't call him out. Therefore, on the last play of the game, there is no penalty for the LL runner who crashes into the catcher.

You must check whatever book you are using to find out.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
I have been reading old archived discussions about incorporating PBUC, Jaska/Roder, and Jim Evans interpretations into the OBR book in the future.

My question is.....WHEN?

If there are 237 errors in the OBR, why haven't we fixed them yet. Every year I tear into my new copy of the rules, and the only thing that ever changes is the strike zone.

All these interpretation manuals, and others such as Carl's BRD, are excellent tools, but until they incorporate them into one official book, they are just opinions, in amatuer baseball.

This is my opinion. Feedback please.

There are official opinon, like the OBR casebook, authoritative opinion, like Roder and Evans and then who cares opinion like yours and mine. "Opinion" is not a dirty word. Since some rules are somewhat vague, it is opinion that carries the day. One needs to seek out the most authoritaive and accepted opinion available. When you do some homework, you'll find that many of the opinions of JEA and Roder had found their way into practice in MLB.

If it's good enough for MLB it should be good enough for OBR "amateur" baseball, unless of course you are working LL or some other league that expressly disagrees with Major League rules.

I believe the liklihood of a major rewrite diminishes each year. It is what it is. We can work with it or we can b!tch. I quit banging my head against the wall in my thirties.


[Edited by GarthB on Nov 18th, 2005 at 02:00 PM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by LDUB

Are you refering to a FPSR violation? If not, why would the run not count if the the contact happened after the runner scored?

1. No.

2. Please re-read my post. I didn't say it wouldn't. I said it would.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
Mr. Benham,

Suppose R3 crashed F2 prior to reaching the plate.

Under OBR, would you call him out because at the point of initiating the contact, he was ejected and no longer can score, or do you just disallow the run without calling him out?

Obviously I'm not talking about pure OBR, but youth league modified OBR with attempt to avoid rules.

Tim.

Tim,

This is exactly what happened in my example. Giles took out the catcher, who was stradling home plate, in a solid-looking, ready to block the plate stance.

I don't have Giles ejected, until all playing action had ceased, so the run scored, under the prevailing rules that were being used.

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Nov 18th, 2005 at 02:00 PM]

[Kaliix]

Hey BigUmp,
More of my games are called solo than are called with partners. These are all sanctioned games, not pickup games. I would love to have a partner for every game, but that ain't how it is.

You may want to consider that there are places that actually do things differently than you do instead of relagating all of us to "pick up" game status.

"1) In many parts of the country, one umpire may be all that is available or budgeted. Rookies get the bottom of the barrel stuff as well as some nice treats. I've lived in places that had players moving farm equipment from the outfield just before the game. Those rookies were the only thing that allowed the game to happen.

I thought we were discussing sanctioned baseball games here Windy. I had no idea you were talking about pick up games in the middle of a farm. I would imagine that yes, it would be hard to be a rookie working a non sanctioned game for a bunch of pick up players."

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Tim C

Now Steve, you seem to put a lot of importance in your local association. You name drop continually of players that enventually become MLB guys.

I doubt seriously if San Diego is that much better than many of the areas where noted posters on this site work.

Tee

Tee,

In 1992, our commissioner was trying to dramatically improve our umpire association and was looking for ideas to copy. We had Jim Evans in for a clinic and he told us about many of the local associations that he had visited. Our commissioner asked him to name the best one that he had ever seen.

Without hesitating, Jim named San Diego. Since then, I've heard several well traveled umpires name San Diego as an association that has their stuff together. None of my information, however, is more recent than 1997. An association can go into the toilet in a hurry without proper leadership so who knows what the present state of affairs is.

Peter