PBUC , J/R, and Evans

[DG]

Originally posted by Dave Reed

Do you have a citation number from the PBUC Umpire Manual to support your assertion?
Thanks,
Dave Reed

I could not find in PBUC either. Item 109 in BRD says batter can not overrun in FED but can in NCAA or OBR if he returns immediatelly.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by GarthB

Until amateur umpiring becomes nationalized, which will never happen, they will not be universally applied.

But they are applied today by intelligent associations and leagues and are more than opinion. They are authoritative opinion and they carry weight with many BOD's, leagues and associations. I don't understand why you are fighting so hard.

You want MLB to come out and say, "The JEA is Gospel." Won't happen. We have to move on and use what is available. You have a choice to support yourself with the likes of the JEA or the opinion of Ernie down the street at Aunt Martha's Pie and Screen Door Company.

I would love for all associations to supply the manuals to each official at the first meeting of the season. Then, and only then, would all officials in the same association be able to call games in a consistent way. That is all. Mods, lock this sucker up.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Dave, here is the web page I got this, and other gems from. The poor man's PBUC.

http://home.earthlink.net/~sscutchen...UC/interps.htm

[GarthB]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

I would love for all associations to supply the manuals to each official at the first meeting of the season. Then, and only then, would all officials in the same association be able to call games in a consistent way. That is all. Mods, lock this sucker up.

Steve:

You appear to be an adult, but you are sounding like a teenager.

First of all, never will ALL associations do anything the same way. Let's pretend we live in the real world. Affect that which you can. Work to get YOUR associations and the leagues YOU work with to understand the need for and the legitimacy of "Casebook type" materials. My association uses the JEA and the leagues which we work utilize it for any appeals or rulings.

You want the same? Work for it. Don't whine about it. It isn't very becoming of someone who is so good an umpire he was nicknamed Augie Donatelli. It resembles more a little league umpire who doesn't understand reality.

Then, move on so you don't become another "Poor Johnny One Note."

You'll be glad you did.

[Edited by GarthB on Nov 21st, 2005 at 12:06 AM]

[SanDiegoSteve]

Garth, Garth, Garth,

I'm not whining about anything. I brought up the subject because there are so many differing interpretations being used, and not everyone has access to the manuals. That's all.

I am perfectly willing to call the games the same way I always have. I don't have any problem with that. I originally asked a legitimate question: When will the manuals be incorporated in the rule books? I got my answer about 9 pages ago. It was answered by Ozzy. Ever since, the thread had gone on a variety of tangents. I recently attempted to steer it back into a discussion.

You have made a good suggestion. We should all talk to the powers that be, within our associations, to find a standard interpretation reference, and have everyone use it. I too, think all the reference manuals are just grand.

I gave an example from the PBUC, just to illustrate how two authorative opinions differed on the same play.

Garth, please feel free to start a thread of your own. Let's talk about something more interesting. This one has gone on much longer than I ever imagined it would. I would gladly drop the subject at any point. I don't want to be another one-note Johnny.

[Dave Reed]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
Dave, here is the web page I got this, and other gems from. The poor man's PBUC.

http://home.earthlink.net/~sscutchen...UC/interps.htm

Steve,
Thanks for the link. Just so you know, these ruling were made by Chris Jones of the PBUC. Subsequent to this particular ruling, Mike Fitzpatrick, who is the director of the PBUC, provided the contrary ruling that a B/R may overrun on a ball 4 passed ball or wild pitch. You can read about this in the BRD (article 109 in the 2004 edition.)
I don't have a copy of the JEA, but if it actually said that the B/R may not overrun on ball 4, I expect that Papa C would have included it in the BRD. According to Rich Ives, in a thread here from last July 27, the MLBUM also allows an overrun. And J/R allows the overrun.
So I'm inclined to believe that there is pretty good agreement among the various authorities regarding OBR-- except Chris Jones.

Of course, not all rule codes are the same: FED doesn't allow overruns, and NCAA explicity allows them by rule.
Dave

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Were these your words? Let's not pretend they aren't, BigUmp56.

"No rookie umpire, or experienced umpire should have to worry about being able to quote rules to a manager. He shouldn't be on the diamond without an experienced partner. That's one of the reasons we allow conferences, so that we can put at least one more head into the mix to sort things out, away from the manager."

I'm glad you don't consider that offensive. It's just your opinion, right? "He shouldn't be on the diamond without an inexperienced partner." No, that's not offensive to thousands of umpires! Experienced umpires quote rules all of the time, they don't just call it and walk away. Most experienced umpires respect the game and tolerate the coaches. If you can't explain your call respectfully to a coach you are in worse shape than I imagined.



But, wait…there’s more!

The coup de grace is that you edited your post to remove the hate filled rhetoric and omit the part that derided groups for not having the jewels to demand two umpires. No one claims that working a game by himself is fun, easy or desirable. Your arrogance is disturbing. Back it up with a more than a few years of big diamond work then I’ll listen.

I don’t edit my posts for spelling or grammar mistakes. I try not to ridicule others for making typos unless they do it themselves. If I make a mistake, I don’t try to hide it. I noted the number of edited posts you and SDS make. You'll never get a Gold Glove with all of those errors.

You are developing a penchant for being a disruptor. Twisting the facts on multiple internet sites seems to be your dream. I can't imagine why.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Dave Reed

Do you have a citation number from the PBUC Umpire Manual to support your assertion?
Thanks,
Dave Reed

It's not in the PBUC umpire's manual. It's in the MLBUM, 5.14 Note.

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
But, wait…there’s more!

did you know that ron popeil has made something like $30 million, and the "but wait...theres more" line was completely unscripted and just stuck with him once the crowd kept repeating it? something like that.

sorry, had to add that.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
Dave, here is the web page I got this, and other gems from. The poor man's PBUC.

http://home.earthlink.net/~sscutchen...UC/interps.htm

These "interpretations" are unsigned. They are not published by PBUC nor sanctioned by it. They are from a very good amateur umpire in Galveston, I believe, name Steve Cutchen. (I know he's good because he has some of my stuff on his site.)

You can find official PUBC interpretations in their manual or the BRD. PBUC has no position on over-running first base on an award.

[SanDiegoSteve]

WWTB,

I try to make my posts presentable, and I don't like looking at my mistakes. I don't go back later and edit out things I have said. I may delete a post immediately after posting it, if I made it out of anger and felt it was to much, or made me look totally stupid (I know, I do that all the time). I sometimes edit my posts to add content that I thought of too late. But these are reasons why the edit feature exists. And using "your" instead of "you're" is not a typo, it is an example of very bad grammar. Come on WW, I'm just bustin' your chops, dude. Don't get mad! Just having some fun here. Laugh a little.

Garth,

I just got done reading some very interesting posts from this forum, circa March, 2003, in which you, Tee, and several other regulars discussed the very subject of this thread. The same questions were bantied about back then. "Which interpretation is right," "I don't agree with the PBUC interp," and that sort of thing. Very spirited discussions, indeed. I learned more from reading those posts, than from this exercise in futility. Search engines are great!

Steve

[SanDiegoSteve]

I guess the bottom line is I need to break down and buy all of the different manuals, since they can't be Limewired.

There goes my new chest protector and leg guards!

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

As you've seen, few will agree on any topic. Loyalties to fundamentals and manuals are engrained in our beings. I graduated from B/F a long time ago and relied on the BUD programs to get the job done. The guys I see from JEA are terrifically sound instructors and umpires. But they are robots married to his manual. Those that jump to the next level think that PBUC is the Holy Grail. Some groups have their own instruction manuals that are really sound. The bottom line is that with so many schools and so much money at stake, consolidation is an impossible task. Most of us are too set in our ways to abandon the things we know. Just look at how long it has taken for the high strike to be called by former American League umpires.

A habanero may be tasty to you, but it melts my mouth.

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Were these your words? Let's not pretend they aren't, BigUmp56.

"No rookie umpire, or experienced umpire should have to worry about being able to quote rules to a manager. He shouldn't be on the diamond without an experienced partner. That's one of the reasons we allow conferences, so that we can put at least one more head into the mix to sort things out, away from the manager."

I'm glad you don't consider that offensive. It's just your opinion, right? "He shouldn't be on the diamond without an inexperienced partner."


Here you go again twisting my words to suit yourself. You've even gone so far now as to write what I said originally in quotation marks. The original statement I made was about rookie umpires. If you can read, you'll see the word rookie in the quote. If you had any intelligence you would know that the next line you quoted started with the word "he." That would mean the rookie you dolt. And, no a rookie should not be out there alone.

No, that's not offensive to thousands of umpires! Experienced umpires quote rules all of the time, they don't just call it and walk away. Most experienced umpires respect the game and tolerate the coaches. If you can't explain your call respectfully to a coach you are in worse shape than I imagined.

Now were no longer discussing rookies working solo. I don't feel it's our responsibility to quote rules. I can just hear you now WWTB as you explain a call. "Well coach as you know per rule 11.09 blah, blah, blah. Your runner can't yada, yada, yada... Since he did, the penalty phase of yakity yak applies." That's absurd to most officials I know. You just tell them what you saw and move on. There's no need to give a lesson on rules to a manager every time they challenge a call. There's a difference between respecting and tolerating a manager as opposed to kissing his backside. If you are trying to imagine what kind of shape I'm in. Maybe you can come to South Bend and work a few games with me. You'll soon find out what kind of shape I'm in if you do.


But, wait�there�s more!

The coup de grace is that you edited your post to remove the hate filled rhetoric and omit the part that derided groups for not having the jewels to demand two umpires. No one claims that working a game by himself is fun, easy or desirable. Your arrogance is disturbing. Back it up with a more than a few years of big diamond work then I�ll listen.

1) I've never writtin anything hate filled. These are my own opinions based on my personal experiences with no hate or ill will involved. Just opinions. The definiton of rhetoric, is the ability to use our language skillfully, so I'll take that as a compliment.

2) The word "jewels" in this context is a metaphor for courage or intestinal fortitude. It in now way shows hatred of any kind. You have a knack for taking things out of context though, so I'll consider the source and move on.

3) What are you talking about? I've edited a few posts for gramattical errors, and in one post I decided to play nice and edit the post to include your new screen name. I never derided a group and you know that, but now you're just trying to be cute. The post that a couple of guys took offense to was the post where I said their associations needed the jewels to effect change. It's still there.

4)I have more than a few years on the 90' diamond, but unlike you, I don't flaunt my resume like a trophy for all to see.

5)I think it was Garth that described the irony in one of Pete's post's wasn't it? You, the king of arrogance calling me arrogant is unadulterated irony!



I don�t edit my posts for spelling or grammar mistakes.

Well, that's become obvious enough from some of your recent post's.

I try not to ridicule others for making typos unless they do it themselves.

You might try WWTB, but like an addict, you can't help yourself. You always fall back on this tactic when you're defeated.


If I make a mistake, I don�t try to hide it.

Sure you do WWTB, you just use another alias or two on other boards to hide behind.

I noted the number of edited posts you and SDS make. You'll never get a Gold Glove with all of those errors.

I'm not writing a thesis for my doctorate.

You are developing a penchant for being a disruptor.

Only to you and some of your followers. I've been posting here without a problem for several months now. The only real heated discussions I've had are with you.[/B]

Twisting the facts on multiple internet sites seems to be your dream. I can't imagine why.

What facts have I twisted WWTB? Just like you were unable to sucessfully respond to my challenge about the boards policies, you cannot substatiate this claim. If you think you can, I give you my permission to paste any post of mine from a site requiring registration here for all to read. The only dream I have that you need to be concerned about, is that the day will come very soon when you'll get out of line again with someone, and they'll once again put some shoe leather on your backside and send you packin!

Tim.

[ozzy6900]

I love it! Ten pages of pure, 100%, unadultrated, steaming piles of BS! Please keep on - let's see if we can get to 20 pages! That may be a forum first!

:>)


The season's over and we are all bored!