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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 08:40pm
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Literal interpretations ...
Quote:
It is expected in certain situations the defense will anticipate a bunt and they might charge, (yelling "bunt bunt" as they do) or they might just have F5 move in etc., This does nothing to fool the offense or to gain an advantage. Now, at second base F6 yelling back with freshman Joe on 2nd, he might gain a huge advantage. Thus FED saw the need to put in a rule to prevent that from happening. Taking the rules literally can be a bad thing. thanks David |
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 09:06pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
1) Carl writes: My comments are bold. There is a section in the book that says by state assocation declaration, any rule may be superceded [sic]. Again, why is this a puzzle to Carl and his minions? Carl: I don't have minions. Vassals, yes; minions, no. (grin) We'd all be interested in the statute that allows a state association to suspend "any rule." The FED gives states specific rules they may adopt: coach's uniform, courtesy runner, guidelines where ejected participants may go, limits on innings pitched, protests, questions about protests (1970 off. interp.), safety bases, game-ending procedures, mercy rule, tie games, speed-up rules, unforms, and uniform logos. Funny: Verbal obstruction, lodged ball in equipment, the batter's box, exclusive use of NFHS baseballs are not listed. Oh, you can find the rule numbers in the BRD. Look in the index under State Association Adoption. Grab the 1988 one (since you seem to have that Newsletter handy), how many pages are in it? Uh, oh... Carl: Four pages, 46 official interpretations. **Please let me know when the San Antonio clinic will be held. I know some guys down there that will be happy to speak up for me. It will be interesting to see how an autocrat responds to someone who doesn't make his living on a highschool [sic] or Legion ball field. Carl: When I reached 55, I retired from the college ranks - after calling over 400 Division 1 games for, among others, Texas A&M, Baylor, Rice, University of Houston, SMU, Maine, Seton-Hall, Nebraska, Kansas, Kansas State, Arkansas, Arkansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Michigan, and Michigan State. The TASO convention is January 20-22 at the OMNI in San Antonio. Of course, if your "guys down there" have not been nominated for state certification, they won't be allowed to attend my classes. Still, they and I can have a Dr Pepper or two and discuss whatever suits them. Finally: I know you've heard this before, but it bears repeating. Everybody knows who I am. I hide behind no pseudonyms. You'll find no coy references to my identity in my posts. I have the guts to allow my opinions to attach to me. BTW: Anthony NoLastName did not call yet. No email, either. Perhaps he hasn't yet dropped by The Forum. Why don't you give him a call? |
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 09:13pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
[B] Several of you are so hung up on what the player says rather than what happens. Carl, BigUmp, Davein SoCal and others play attention: I'll address this remark for both of my friends Dave and Steve. Windy, there is no post in this thread that's been made by my friend from SanDiego Dave Allison. He's the one who uses the alias DaveinSoCal. The man who uses the alias SanDiego Steve is a different person entirely. From my recollection, he has never made a post on the McGriffs $h1thou$e board. I'll let Steve try to enlighten you further on your assumption that they are one person. [QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue [B] 1) If F5 says "Back" or even "Get Back" to a runner it is not obstruction unless the play is altered in some way. Why is that a puzzle to you? If the runner doesn't bite, we have nothing! Please take a Xanax and read the book and .... No one has said that verbal obstruction should be called if the play is not altered. Are you now saying that if the play is altered by a fielder yelling "back" that the call should be made? Earlier, you said that that call was wrong no matter what the outcome of the play might be. You refered to this as smart coaching when a coach yells this. Your statement here saying that if the play is not altered, we would have nothing, implys that if the play is altered we would have justification for making the call. [QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue [B] 3) You still can't justify enforcing the penalty on something you can't possibly see. Carl, when someone curses directly at you from the dugout what do you do? What happens if your back is turned and you can't tell who said it? This statement is also a ruse to support your position. Since none of can "see" verbal comments, what's your point? If you need to be looking straight at a defensive player to be able to tell if he was the one who yelled, your judgement is seriously lacking. I cant speak for Carl , but I will tell you how I handle a player or coach cursing at me with my back turned to the dugout. I call time and call out the manager from the dugout or the coaches box to have a little chat. During our little huddle, I tell him he needs to put a stop to it! I'll tell him, "Skip, the next time I hear it, I'm turning to the dugout and dumping the first player I see. You can bet good money on it that the first player I find will be either your starting pitcher, or your catcher." This has always worked for me and the managers will shut it down. [QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue [B] . I would love to see them pull out the Newsletter to validate their point. "Uh, coach this is from 1988, but it says quite clearly..." The casebook changes every year, so does the rule book. Grab the 1988 one (since you seem to have that Newsletter handy), how many pages are in it? Uh, oh... Again Windy, what's your point? Are you saying you need to pull a rule book or a case book out every time a manager disputes a ruling? If a manager disputes a ruling that I'm confident in, I tell him I've made the call and if he doesn't like my answer, he can lodge a protest. End of story. I'm not going to hold a rules clinic with a manager during the course of a game. I'll let him file the protest and forward along the ruling interpretation to the protest committee. Quote:
[Edited by BigUmp56 on Oct 30th, 2005 at 12:27 AM] |
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 10:15pm
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So many students, so little time...
David B - I recognize that the the issues are separate, thus the different numbers identifying each. I was suggesting that the team yells "Bunt" not to identify what the player is going to do, but because it rattles him. Too many umpires wet their pants when they hear "Swing", so some coaches have resorted to this tact. I've witnessed it on a Legion field, during the state championships! We did not penalize it since it was ignored by the other time and just didn't fit the bill for verbal obstruction. Carl - You are a fool. Your ego is clouding your judgement. Brad must be really proud of your efforts in alienating an NFHS Baseball Committee member and besmirching an entire population. Claim that you didn't write it, but most of us saw you say that the umpires in Illinois got it wrong again. The Rule Book does not contain statutes, I thought you were familiar with the terminology. We have schools that have ThorGuard Lightning Systems, they use different criteria for suspending/postponing games. We have conferences that don't permit the DH or Mercy Rule. I know of multiple schools that never use officially sanctioned NFHS baseballs. I worked twelve ball games in another state last year that used Fed rules but allowed take out slides! The coaching uniform is mandated by the rule book (3-2-1), but I've rarely seen correct compliance. These are rules we've seen flaunted throughout the US. Last year, a Florida umpire told us that one of his favorite coaches buys MLB seconds when the pro team breaks spring training. Another told us that they have schools that never allow courtesy runners. You told us that you ignore the proper call (according to the rules) because your evaluator/assignor/league administrator doesn't want the headaches. This sounds very familiar. SanDiegoSteve/BigUmp56/DaveinSoCal - Your thoughts are too conjoined for mere coincidence. If this is the case, a paternity check may be in order. You'll never understand why I don't like this rule or why I think you are incorrect. I've never written that I would call it if the runner bit, I was just pointing out yet another fault in your logic. You heard it, so you call it, even with no play alteration! When a player swears at you from the dugout, dumping the starting pitcher or catcher sure makes you feel good but look stupid. If someone is yelling in the dugout, I don't let the coach handle it. I wait until I can identify him and then I do my job. I don't invite the coach out to talk with me - that's called baiting and good umpires frown on it. Bad umpires rely on it. No, I don't make verbal obstruction calls on F5 when I don't see him utter the words. I suggest you read what I wrote earlier. "A smart coach or player will figure out how inept you are. As an OOO, they will trick you by having the runner say loudly, "Back" and then dive back to the base. You'll throw your hands up and say, 'That's Obstruction' and put him on third. Nice going blue, call what you don't see." Good coaching will always beat bad umpiring. It sounds like you are desperately looking for a win. Call it if you want, many High School umpires have a bad reputation for a reason. |
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Sat Oct 29, 2005, 10:40pm
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Hey Windbag,
Carl Childress has forgotten more about umpiring than you or I even know, so I tend to respect his opinions, even when I disagree with them. You, on the other hand, have no respect for others, and it really shows your lack of class. I am not Dave in SoCal, although I have heard he's a very good official. He is in a different association, and we have never met, nor do I recall having read anything he has ever written. So, If some of our baseball related opinions are similar in nature, it is purely coincidental. From what I understand, you were a real jerk on this board before, and got banned from here, Now you're back under a new assumed name. Good luck. Edited to add: BTW, Windy, I am on record as not being a Fed rules fan. I think most of the rule differences are retarded, the verbal obstruction rule being one of them. But I go ahead and enforce these rules regardless of my personal feelings. Just so you don't keep misstating facts. Steve [Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Oct 30th, 2005 at 12:00 AM]
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25 |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 04:52am
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Quote:
I'm not back under an assumed name any more than San Diego Steve was your birth name. I am opinionated and eloquent enough to speak my mind. I also bring many more years of umpring to the table than you can imagine. My resume has been posted here before and much to a couple of member's chagrin, actually was supported by a couple who worked with me. I'll agree that Carl has forgotten more about umpiring. The game has changed and accountability is more important than relationships. Yes, I enforce the rules, that is my biggest gripe. I just can't find that rule in the Fed book. I don't save newsletters because the rules are in the book. I have been fortunate to never have one of my calls protested. I have been witness to a partner's misfortune when he misapplied a rule in a crucial game. I can't imagine the amount of laughter when one of you would whip out a newsletter from 1988 or even 1995 to substantiate that call. All important interps make their way into the Rule and Case Books. In Illinois, we have annual Rule Interp Meetings. Powerpoint has replaced overhead transparencies but the message is the same. I have never seen that particular verbal obstruction mentioned. I have seen ones regarding "Time", "Foul", "Balk" and "Swing". Now, if it is different where you live, that's terrific. I hate the rule even more than you. If you have to call it, I can understand why. Just be sure you see the guy say it and watch the runner alter his action. Again, sorry for the confusion. I don't expect that we'll be fast friends, but I hope you'll accept my words. |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 05:39am
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1) If F5 says "Back" or even "Get Back" to a runner it is not obstruction unless the play is altered in some way. Why is that a puzzle to you? If the runner doesn't bite, we have nothing! Please take a Xanax and read the book and .. Windy, These are your words, not mine. You've now said what we all were saying at the begining. By stating that unless the play is altered, there is no obstruction, implys that if the play is altered, there is obstruction. You can't have it both ways. Your post containing the insult regarding my family lineage would get your @$$ kicked if you said it to me personally. Both of my parents died tragicly in the last couple of years. To me, that was one h@11 of a low blow. You can call me what you want to, but leave my family out of it! If your any kind of man, you'll apologize. Tim. |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 06:11am
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Quote:
I will apologize when it is appropriate. You came here throwing stones and live in a glass house. Others can read your displays of gentility on the other site. Even here, most know that you plow ahead without the couth required. I never questioned your lineage, but made a sarcastic point that the two of you use the same writing style - errors included. If you think that is a shot at your parents, then I'd hate to see how you react to criticism on the field. We've all lost loved ones, parents included. I've never met a person that didn't find their parents' demise tragic. I have never brought mine into a conversation, no matter how badly I was being humbled. I miss mine as well, but find your display sadly misguided. As I've stated before, I tried to remain above the fray. When those below insist on throwing muck, they are met with a maelstrom. If you want to argue the validity of the play, I will be happy to entertain your thoughts. Until then, I will await a more subtle display of false machismo. |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 07:47am
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Listen up dickhead! How is questioning my paternity not taking a shot at my parents? You claim to be "above" the rest of us by taking the "high" road, and yet when I dispute your interpretation of this play by posting a nationally known NFHS rules interpreter's take on the play, you stoop to personal insults of the lowest caliber in an attempt to support your position.
You are mere pond scum my friend. It's no wonder why you hide behind an internet alias. If you didn't, you would be hunted down like the dog you are! You claim that "most" of the members of this board know I have no couth and just "plow" ahead with my responses. Please tell me who "most" of these members are. The only members of this forum I've ever engaged in a debate with were Tee and Ozzy. Both times, we were able to A2D on the situation. Don't bring up that cesspool of filth McGriffs and claim anything negative about me. I haven't posted anything on that board since this subject was discussed there. Even in those threads dealing with this topic, a full 50% of the posts made under the moniker BigUmp56 were not made by me. For all I know, you made them in an attempt to make me look bad. Either way, the members of this board know with certainty that you have no class and should go back to your groupies on McGriffs. Curious, Al, and Franklin are there waiting to stroke your ego once again. You were not missed here while you were gone. At least on boards like this that require registration, your kind of trolling is kept to a minimum. Again Windy, you can kiss my @$$! Tim. |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 09:24am
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Suggesting that a paternity test might be in order was more of an insult to San Diego Steve than it was to you.
Obviously, he understood what sarcasm means. Nice diction and use of our mother tongue. The curses were a nice touch. It's probably a good thing you can't get your mouth washed out anymore. |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 01:46pm
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Windy,
You claim to have all these years umpiring. I have 19 myself, and I do it full-time, not as a hobby. I have over 3,000 games, most at Varsity HS level or higher. 6 days a week, 8-10 games a week, from January until games run out. So, please don't talk to me like I just fell off the turnip truck. Mark Prior sure always thought I was a pretty good umpire when I would call his games, when he would pitch a no-no and strike out 15, for example. But I see no need to post my entire resume here, as you apparently already have. I can't think of anything that I have said concerning the playing rules that would lead you to believe that what I say is "claptrap". But that is what you said, so be specific, so I can address the issue. Edited to add: Also, I have never called obstruction for a defensive player yelling "back". I turn around and say, "knock it off". That has always nipped it in the bud before it got out of hand. HS only, naturally. [Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Oct 30th, 2005 at 02:03 PM]
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25 |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 01:47pm
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Hmmm,
Windy wrote:
"So many students, so little time..." -------- WCB, it is simple statements like this make even you strongest supporters wince. It can be taken as condesending and arrogant (and I know a lot about those two issues). WHY? Why, do you think that you can "teach" umpiring to anyone on this board? Actually I have only one challenge with your posts: They would have a value if you identified who you are so we can decide if your experience and umpiring level equal that which you profess. Pretty simple answer, huh? Tee |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 08:00pm
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TAC,
My resume has been discussed ad nauseum. A few of you actually know my identity. Suffice to say that what many of you thought was fluff, turned out to credible enough that some apologized. I feel no need to address my detractors - I'm old enough to have made good use of the B-F school. I felt compelled to teach a lesson, that is a simple extension of my role as an umpire instructor around here. If that phrase bothered you, then you were clearly not among those that required assistance in understanding my point of view. As any proctor knows, some lessons fall on deaf ears. My goal is not to convince all of you that my view is better than yours. Sometimes, my posts reflect the fact that my message was lost, as what had happened there. I've said it multiple times, if you feel the need to make that call, go right ahead. It won't affect me or those around me. I simply cautioned you to be aware that supporting it with a ten year old newsletter is treading a slippery slope. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Prior? Wow, a high school pitcher told you that you were pretty good. I can't believe it. Did you really want to brag about that? |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005, 08:59pm
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Quote:
We all do. So you work D1 games. I know umpires who can't umpire tiddlywinks contests that work D1. I have found through the years that ability does not necessarily equal higher level assignments. When Mark Prior pitched in high school, believe me, it was a big deal around here. My assignor would not give games like this to an unqualified umpire, and that is why I even mentioned it, so you might quit thinking that I, or any other umpire on this board, needed any "schooling" from the big "Teach".
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25 |
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Mon Oct 31, 2005, 12:26am
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Quote:
You must have some self-confidence issues. I don't recall saying that you were unqualified to officiate. I can suggest that some schooling may be in order though. Apparently you missed the English lessons involving proper grammar. Once again, you've turned an innocent observation into a catastrophe of biblical proportions. (Okay, I'm exagerrating, but you seem to like hyperbole.) I have been an umpire instructor for longer than I care to remember. I learn new things every session. I'm not offended by others showing me how to be better. I can't understand why you keep making issues out of this. Plenty of people use pseudonyms and we don't fret. Is your name really "San Diego Steve"? I use the current nom de net because the system does not allow me to use the old one. If you can't accept that I know enough to support my views, that is your choice. I have merely provided a counterpoint to a very contentious issue. It is called this way in Illinois and a few other places. If they call it differently in your area, that is fantastic for you. I can't believe that you are that worked up about this. |
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