Is the play illegal

[timharris]

hello,

I just need a clarification on a rule of making a mockery of the game. This weekend i was umpire in chief for a AAU baseball tournament here in Virginia. A team from Northern Virginia was using a play that i think was illegal. The pitcher would step off the rubber with the ball in his glove and fake a throw to the outfield and the whole team even coaches would yell get the ball get the ball while the runners on 1st and 2nd come very confused, to me this play has no place in baseball. This is almost like faking a throw and then faking the tag. What is the proper ruling on this play, they play on National Federation rules and i couldnt locate this anywhere in the book.



"YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR CREW"

Tim Harris

[DG]

Originally posted by timharris
hello,

I just need a clarification on a rule of making a mockery of the game. This weekend i was umpire in chief for a AAU baseball tournament here in Virginia. A team from Northern Virginia was using a play that i think was illegal. The pitcher would step off the rubber with the ball in his glove and fake a throw to the outfield and the whole team even coaches would yell get the ball get the ball while the runners on 1st and 2nd come very confused, to me this play has no place in baseball. This is almost like faking a throw and then faking the tag. What is the proper ruling on this play, they play on National Federation rules and i couldnt locate this anywhere in the book.



"YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR CREW"

Tim Harris

Legal. The proper ruling is to watch the ball and see what happens next, which is what the runners should be doing.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

It's been a while since I cracked it open, but I believe this very play is described in the Federation Case Book. If I'm not mistaken, they put the onus on the offensive team's coaches. I liken this to the hidden ball trick. It may seem unethical, but it is legal. It's amazing how often it works though. It is even described on a few coaching websites.


Edited later that morning!

Okay, I just found it - in the current Fed book, page 48. Rule 6.2.4 E says it all.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Oct 24th, 2005 at 08:09 AM]

[RPatrino]

Just like WWTB said, it's legal.

Coach's must teach their players to pay attention. I remember a trick that one of the HS coach's used to play when I was in high school. He'd have one of his players on the bench holding two bats, and instead of throwing the ball back to the pitcher, the catcher would simulate a pop up, while at the same time the player on the bench would bang the bats together. Talk about chaos.I used to enjoy watching my coach go ape on the bench.

All part of the game.

Bob P.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by RPatrino
Just like WWTB said, it's legal.

Coach's must teach their players to pay attention. I remember a trick that one of the HS coach's used to play when I was in high school. He'd have one of his players on the bench holding two bats, and instead of throwing the ball back to the pitcher, the catcher would simulate a pop up, while at the same time the player on the bench would bang the bats together. Talk about chaos.I used to enjoy watching my coach go ape on the bench.

All part of the game.

Bob P.

That play is illegal (obstruction) under FED rules.

[BretMan]

The play in the original post is a legal play. Bush league, maybe, but legal.

You will find no rule in the books about "making a mockery of the game". You might be thinking of the phrase "making a travesty of the game" which is used in only one case- in reference to a runner running the bases in the reverse order.

Either way, that's not what happened here, so the "mockery/travesty" clause does not apply.

[GarthB]

"I just need a clarification on a rule of making a mockery of the game."

There is no such rule.

[DG]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
That play is illegal (obstruction) under FED rules.

Please cite rule, case book, or whatever other source you have.

[umpduck11]

Originally posted by DG

Please cite rule, case book, or whatever other source you have.

NFHS Rule Book
2-22-1

"Obstruction is an act(intentional or unintentional,as
well as physical or verbal) by a fielder,any member of the defensive team,or it's team personnel,that hinders a runner
or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3,and 8-3-2"
Case book contains a situation somewhat similar to this
one,although it is verbal in nature.

[DG]

Originally posted by umpduck11

NFHS Rule Book
2-22-1

"Obstruction is an act(intentional or unintentional,as
well as physical or verbal) by a fielder,any member of the defensive team,or it's team personnel,that hinders a runner
or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3,and 8-3-2"
Case book contains a situation somewhat similar to this
one,although it is verbal in nature.

I need a better reference than this, should this come up in an important game.

I can see calling obstruction on the offense when they verbally do something to prevent the offense from advancing. Or a fake tag, that makes a runner slide insted of advancing. But this play is a trick play designed to enduce the offense to advance, not hinder advance.

Now for a similar play, run by the offense all the time to trick the defense. R1 and R3, R1 starts for 2b, either after the pitch, or after pitcher comes set. The intent is not to steal 2b, but to draw a throw, and allow runner on 3b to score, while defense is pre-occupied with R1.

i saw something similar this weekend. Batter walks with runner on 3b, he rounds 1b like he is legging out a double and nearly stops between 1st and 2nd. Needless to say the next 60 seconds were funny as sh*t, and when it was all over we had R1 and R3 and no one tagged out. Better execution on defense would have resulted in an OUT on one of the runners. There was a point in time that if 2b man was a tad smarter, R3 would have been out (love to get those lead runners on trick plays).

If this is well defensed it will not work. In the other situation, if runners watch the ball it will not work either.

I have heard this play called the "Miami" play. I always assumed it was first used by Univ of Miami, but I don't know for sure.

[JJ]

Originally posted by timharris
"I just need a clarification on a rule of making a mockery of the game. This weekend i was umpire in chief for a AAU baseball tournament here in Virginia. A team from Northern Virginia was using a play that i think was illegal. The pitcher would step off the rubber with the ball in his glove and fake a throw to the outfield and the whole team even coaches would yell get the ball get the ball while the runners on 1st and 2nd come very confused, to me this play has no place in baseball. This is almost like faking a throw and then faking the tag. What is the proper ruling on this play, they play on National Federation rules and i couldnt locate this anywhere in the book."

If the runner is goaded into sliding back into second when the fielder fakes taking a throw, by FED rules you will have Obstruction (Fake Tag). Other than that, it's a fire drill that is legal - I saw it twice this year with runners on second and third (in different games). In one instance the 3rd base coach recognized the play, and when the runner on third base started to take off for home the coach physically grabbed him. Yep, the umpires had an out AND an unhappy third base coach!

JJ

[DG]

Originally posted by JJ
If the runner is goaded into sliding back into second when the fielder fakes taking a throw, by FED rules you will have Obstruction (Fake Tag). Other than that, it's a fire drill that is legal - I saw it twice this year with runners on second and third (in different games). In one instance the 3rd base coach recognized the play, and when the runner on third base started to take off for home the coach physically grabbed him. Yep, the umpires had an out AND an unhappy third base coach!
JJ
[/B]

Under your definition, any spin move to 2b that results in the runner sliding back to 2b is illegal, since he was "goaded" to return by a fake tag and a fake throw.

So, if the pitcher steps off the rubber with a runner on 1b and fakes a throw to 1b, thereby "goading" the runner to slide back (or dive) is therefore also obstruction. I hope you will agree that this is rediculous, as is faking a throw to 2b to "goad" the runner to go back to 2b.

In general this play is not about faking a tag. It is about faking a wild throw from the pitcher. It works best when 2b and SS both dive headlong for the "wild throw", thus enducing the untrained runner to advance, not slide (or dive) back to 2b, and I have never seen this work without the "wild throw" sell by 2b and SS.

[Edited by DG on Oct 25th, 2005 at 12:27 AM]

[nickrego]

What about FED 6-2-2c ????

Delay of game includes:

C)failing to pitch or make or attempt a play, including a legal feint, within 20 seconds after he has received the ball.

I would not consider faking a throw to the outfield a 'legal feint'.

Start calling balls on the batter !

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Nick, that is simply not a delay of game. He is making a play on a runner. It is cited specifically as a legal play. We are picking nits here.

In Bob's obstruction call, the defensive team made a sound associated with the game (the fake ball/bat) and induced the deception. Without the sound, we've got nothing. However, the coaches have taken a unnecessary action to sell the play. Bob was correct and this should be penalized accordingly.

I've only seen one reference to making a mockery of the game and it doesn't refer to this type of play.

[BigUmp56]

Please clarify what you're trying to say here. I read your response this way. If the feign to the outfield is not accompanied by the verbal shout of "get the ball", or something to that effect, there is no obstruction to call.

If there is a verbal shout along with the feign, this has altered the course of the play and the provisions of 6-22-1 then apply.

Am I understanding you correctly?


Tim.