NLCS-Game 6 (and final)

[mcrowder]

David, my apologies for not making sense - I thought my point was exceedingly clear. Now if you disagree with my point - fine, feel free, I can see your side too --- but surely my post made sense.

As to whether U1 had a "good" look, or a good enough look to give U2 any additional information --- we'll never know, he didn't ask. From the angle U2 had and the strange dive Everett took, he could have be A) right about the tag, B) wrong, with the tag missing by an inch or so (the actual case), or C) wrong, with the tag missed by a foot and a half. My point is - HE DOESN'T KNOW - he was blocked, and he KNOWS he was blocked.

On this ACTUAL play, I suspect that it was so close that in fact U1 and U9 did NOT have a clear enough view of the play to give U2 any additional information. That doesn't mean U2 shouldn't have checked, as he DOES NOT KNOW this until he DOES ask. Since he DIDN'T ask, he was derelict in his duties.

[Kaliix]

I personally don't care one way or the other whether help should have been asked for.

But to say that the umpire at first wouldn't be watching the play develop seems a little ridiculous. When the ball is hit to and a double play is likely, there is going to be nothing to watch at first base until the runner gets near the bag.

Maybe I am unaware of the proper mechanic, but with no one on, I learned to watch the ball, watch the fielder field it and then watch the release to see if the throw is true, lest I might have to adjust my angle on a poor throw.

I can't see why it would be any different on a double play. Get in position and follow the ball. You watch until the throw is released from second base to make sure that throw is true, again in case you have to adjust position for a poor throw.

In this case, I would think that the first base umpire would be looking right at the play, from a pretty good angle and could see three inches of daylight between the tag from 90 feet.

Again, I don't about asking for help or not, but the first base umpire most likely saw the play.

Originally posted by JRutledge

I think the only person making assumptions is you. I am giving you what the mechanics are.

I honestly do not know what you are talking about. If these umpires have been versed in 6 Man mechanics, then I am sure they are not trying to watch all over the field. Now you suggest the RF Umpire can see this play? The RF Umpire is probably 150 feet away from the play. He also is not in a very good angle either. You want an umpire over 100 feet away from a play making a call? You have got to be kidding me.

You do sound like a rookie, because you do not follow the ball most of the time. You actually watch "off ball" most of the time or watch the players to determine. If you always watch the ball you are going to miss many plays like obstruction and interference calls. You might even miss whether a runner is going to advance bases, which will help in anticipating a play at a certain base. Lastly, I am not telling you what to do. Do what you want to on that field. I can just suggest that you might get in a lot of trouble if you ever work 6 man, 4 man or 3 man and you are having umpires all over the field watching plays that are clearly out of their area or they are in a bad angle to help on. I worked more 3 man this year than I ever did in one season and I even worked 4 man. I can tell you I could not help on many plays from my position. This is not about me. This is about what the mechanics are and what is taught. Do you have any evidence that a RF or LF umpire can give help? There has to be some reference somewhere right? I have never heard a RF or LF umpire making a call or helping a base umpire.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Kaliix
I personally don't care one way or the other whether help should have been asked for.

But to say that the umpire at first wouldn't be watching the play develop seems a little ridiculous. When the ball is hit to and a double play is likely, there is going to be nothing to watch at first base until the runner gets near the bag.

Maybe I am unaware of the proper mechanic, but with no one on, I learned to watch the ball, watch the fielder field it and then watch the release to see if the throw is true, lest I might have to adjust my angle on a poor throw.

It is not ridiculous at all to suggest that umpires at this level are following the proper procedures. Assuming they are following the proper mechanics there is not another umpire that would have had a good look at this play. If they did, why are they not helping? I thought he asked for help and the umpire's call did not change.

Originally posted by Kaliix
I can't see why it would be any different on a double play. Get in position and follow the ball. You watch until the throw is released from second base to make sure that throw is true, again in case you have to adjust position for a poor throw.

Who is supposed to help on a double play in 6 man mechanics? I know it is different from 2 Man as compared to 3 Man. So if you are going to interject and example that might not even apply, can you tell us who is supposed to help on a double play situation? Are we talking about a force play or a tag up situation? I am not trying to be sarcastic, but I think you do not understand that there is a completely different procedure as you add umpires to the field. Six Man hardly has any rotations. The umpires are basically standing at their base except for one situation I can think of from the 2nd base umpire.

Originally posted by Kaliix
In this case, I would think that the first base umpire would be looking right at the play, from a pretty good angle and could see three inches of daylight between the tag from 90 feet.

Again, I don't about asking for help or not, but the first base umpire most likely saw the play.

Once again, if the first base umpire is doing his job, he is getting ready to get in position to watch first base. He probably is out of position to know if there was a tag. I saw a couple of angles and I had to see it a couple of times to be sure there was no tag. Now you are suggesting at full speed an umpire that is not in position to make that call, saw the whole thing. I think the umpire asked for help and the call stood. So it sounds pretty clear to me that the umpire did not see anything to change the call. Oh well, what do I know.

Peace

[renrodb]

"I think the umpire asked for help and the call stood. So it sounds pretty clear to me that the umpire did not see anything to change the call. Oh well, what do I know."

Apparantly you didn't see the play or pay close enough attention to the play. What evidence do you have that help was solicited, I never saw U2 talk to any other Umpire. You keep saying that U1 is not in position to see the missed tag. I say he was 60-70 feet away and a direct angle to see the daylight, a much better angle than U2 who was "straight lined" and had no opportunity to see the tag/no tag. And he is rated as the BEST in the majors so I don't think he was watching first base waiting for a throw to come from behind him.
The whole point is that these guys rarely ask for help from one of their team mates. Instead U2 is caught asking the SHORTSTOP if he made the tag. That should be embarrasing.

[jpc2119]

Originally posted by Kaliix


But to say that the umpire at first wouldn't be watching the play develop seems a little ridiculous. When the ball is hit to and a double play is likely, there is going to be nothing to watch at first base until the runner gets near the bag.

Maybe I am unaware of the proper mechanic, but with no one on, I learned to watch the ball, watch the fielder field it and then watch the release to see if the throw is true, lest I might have to adjust my angle on a poor throw.
Again, I don't about asking for help or not, but the first base umpire most likely saw the play.

Peace [/B]

[/B][/QUOTE]

I recently worked a game where the coordinator for most of the east coast was there giving tips to the four of us that were rotating around and he told me the same thing: you watch the ball until the throw to first is made, otherwise you could end up in poor position or get hit with a wild throw. I'm sure McClelland was watching the play.

[PeteBooth]

[ Originally posted by mcrowder

I'll say again... U2 KNEW he did not see the tag (my evidence - the lack of a tag). Most of us who have done this for a while KNOW when we are straightlined. Most of us, when this happens, have no recourse most of the time... but when we do (when the straightlined play is visible by another umpire), we ask for help (this includes, predominately, the "normal" help calls listed above, but is not limited to just those calls). An umpire in MLB is certainly likely to be much better than almost all of us... but should also know when we was straightlined.

As an umpire when it's MY CALL how can I assume that another umpire has a better angle than I did. Suppose the umpires did as you suggest. Called Time, huddled and NO-ONE really saw the TAG/NO TAG - Now what.

As soon as the umpires huddle, EVERYONE knows that YOU meaning Gibson have no clue whether the runner was safe / out. Now even after huddling no other umpire can help. Guess what! A CALL still needs to be made. Now get ready.

IMO, Gibson showed us how to handle a situation in which we are not in proper position. It's a fact of life that one time or another all of us will get caught out of position. It's just not in front of 1 million people to see.

I have done what Gibson did myself. I get caught out of position and look for some clues (players expression) and then SELL the call either way. We can all give examples of how players made our call for us by their actions or expressions. If you do as you suggest, a RHUBARB could easily happen. LaRussa can be Pinella like sometimes and no REAL argument came about.

As mentioned Gibson did the right thing. When Ledge gave up the HR to PuHolse the other night did Ledge ask for help after the fact. He probably wanted to take that pitch back but that's baseball.

Pete Booth

[renrodb]

"As mentioned Gibson did the right thing. When Ledge gave up the HR to PuHolse the other night did Ledge ask for help after the fact. He probably wanted to take that pitch back but that's baseball."

If this is your logic and reasoning, I'm glad I don't work with you!

[David B]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

Originally posted by David B

David, are you saying that you asked the umpires between innings or after the game, or did you mean you asked for help? I didn't get your meaning here. Thanks.

Steve

[/B]

Oops, not very clear was I.

I was U1 on the plays, I asked U2 after the game in each situation about the plays.

Thanks for asking
David

[Kaliix]

I would venture to say that if you know anything about umpiring and know that with six umpires on the field, you would have to have a good idea that if you were the umpire at first, you would be watching to play develop from your position at first and because of that position, probably have a real good look at a tag of a runner going past the second baseman towards the second base bag. Knowing that, you could feel fairly certain that if you were to ask for help, your parter has a good shot of seeing the play.

Just because the umpires huddle, doesn't mean that someone doesn't have a clue. The call has already been made. If the calling umpire knows he got straightlined and has the manager out strenuously arguing that he blew the call, maybe asking for help would be warranted.

Since I didn't see the play, but from what I've read, Larusa didn't put up a big argument, I'd stick with the call.

But if the situation is different and Larusa is seriously arguing that I missed the call and screwed the pooch, and I know I got straightlined and that there is a good possibility that my partner could help, maybe I find out if he can.

Originally posted by PeteBooth
[ Originally posted by mcrowder

I'll say again... U2 KNEW he did not see the tag (my evidence - the lack of a tag). Most of us who have done this for a while KNOW when we are straightlined. Most of us, when this happens, have no recourse most of the time... but when we do (when the straightlined play is visible by another umpire), we ask for help (this includes, predominately, the "normal" help calls listed above, but is not limited to just those calls). An umpire in MLB is certainly likely to be much better than almost all of us... but should also know when we was straightlined.

As an umpire when it's MY CALL how can I assume that another umpire has a better angle than I did. Suppose the umpires did as you suggest. Called Time, huddled and NO-ONE really saw the TAG/NO TAG - Now what.

As soon as the umpires huddle, EVERYONE knows that YOU meaning Gibson have no clue whether the runner was safe / out. Now even after huddling no other umpire can help. Guess what! A CALL still needs to be made. Now get ready.

IMO, Gibson showed us how to handle a situation in which we are not in proper position. It's a fact of life that one time or another all of us will get caught out of position. It's just not in front of 1 million people to see.

I have done what Gibson did myself. I get caught out of position and look for some clues (players expression) and then SELL the call either way. We can all give examples of how players made our call for us by their actions or expressions. If you do as you suggest, a RHUBARB could easily happen. LaRussa can be Pinella like sometimes and no REAL argument came about.

As mentioned Gibson did the right thing. When Ledge gave up the HR to PuHolse the other night did Ledge ask for help after the fact. He probably wanted to take that pitch back but that's baseball.

Pete Booth

[mcrowder]

Pete - so many absurd things to respond to. I'll pick just one:

"How can (he) assume that another umpire has a better angle than I did?"

Uh... easily - he had NO angle, and if anyone knows that, it would be him. EVERYONE (except PU) had a better angle than him. The only question is whether they saw enough to make him change his mind on a call HE KNOWS HE DID NOT SEE. A lot of debate is being had regarding whether McClelland (and/or U9) was looking at this part of the play. I think they did... but the point is moot. The point is, U2 DID NOT SEE the tag (yet called one... aren't we all told in our very first year - see an out, call an out?), KNOWS he did not see the tag, yet refused to even ASK if anyone else had a view of the tag.

One reason, and one reason only. Ego.

And I suspect the folks in charge of officiating have asked him - How did you see a tag from that position, and if you didn't see one, why did you call an out... and further, why didn't you ask if anyone else saw it.

I'm not a champion of asking for help on every single call. I AM a proponent of asking for help when YOU YOURSELF know you did not see a particular play, and that particular play A) could be fixed, and B) could possibly have been seen by someone else. (And no, I'm not a rookie).

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Gentlemen, this is getting silly. Of course the other umpires were watching the play. Yes, they have different mechanics, but they did not forget what they learned on the first day of umpiring school - watch the ball, stupid.
We've had threads about injuries before. Now we see that that may be the least of our concerns.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Oct 22nd, 2005 at 04:31 AM]

[rulesmaven]

What happens if you are absolutely positively certain that your partner has missed a call. If you know you have some help to give that could save your partner from the interview room after the game and tens of thousands of people who like to call talk radio knowing his name?

In basketball, it is unusual but not unheard of for those who have reffed together frequently to develop ways to let each other know silently and quickly that they have help to offer if asked. If I'm not mistaken, I would say I saw something like this on the field last year during game 6 of the ALCS on a home run/no home run call.

Are we certain here that no such thing goes on at this level, and that U1 hadn't actually made it clear that he had no help to offer?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rulesmaven
What happens if you are absolutely positively certain that your partner has missed a call. If you know you have some help to give that could save your partner from the interview room after the game and tens of thousands of people who like to call talk radio knowing his name?

In basketball, it is unusual but not unheard of for those who have reffed together frequently to develop ways to let each other know silently and quickly that they have help to offer if asked. If I'm not mistaken, I would say I saw something like this on the field last year during game 6 of the ALCS on a home run/no home run call.

Are we certain here that no such thing goes on at this level, and that U1 hadn't actually made it clear that he had no help to offer?

In basketball, there are certain plays where you give help (ball tipped oob) and certain plays where you don't (contact or not on a foul).

So it is in baseball. Give help on the homerun call; don't give it on this tag.

Even if U1 (or, for that matter, instant replay) could have hleped on this call, it wouldn't take much to cahnge teh situation to one where help would just make things worse -- and it's hard to draw the line.

[JRutledge]

Here is the bottom line, the call was not changed. The runner was called out and no one helped or saw anything to change the call. Whether any of us like what took place or not, we saw the play at several angles and we have an opinion on the call. These umpires had one shot at a call and they did not technically get it right.

I also find funny that people want to throw out all the procedures that are normally used. I have worked with companies where if you do the right thing and not follow the proper company procedures, you will get fired. No ifs ands or butts about it.

I have not said you cannot ask for help in appropriate situations. Just like Basketball and Football, there are times when officials can ask for help and there are times you cannot ever ask for help. If you ask for help when umpires are not in a good position to make a call, then every call will be up for debate. You have to try to get in position and make the best call at the time. All this conversation what should have been done is Tuesday Morning Quarterbacking.

Peace

[DontFlinch07]

Ya ya ya, Gibson should have asked for help. But I'm glad to see how excellent of a job Gerry Davis did behind the plate. Also I'm glad that Davis ended up becoming the last umpire to work the plate in the old Bush.