NLCS-Game 6 (and final)

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Okay Garth, I'll agree that those would be considered normal help plays. I was unfamiliar with that phrasing, but it appears clear what your intent was.

I think these are great discussions and help define our priorities. Some of us know when we should ask for help and when we should stand our ground. Unusual plays demand unusual mechanics...sometimes we look good,often we take a beating (regardless of being correct).

Jeff missed the point that the 1BU may have had a better view. He assumed he couldn't have and we were suggesting that he might have. We don't know for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that these guys are watching their partner's backs. Yes, he has primary coverage, but if there is no immediate play, trained eyes follow the ball. We can't help it, that little thing can hurt when we don't watch it.

[David B]

Originally posted by JRutledge

This is not a defense or an indictment of this umpires ability. I am asking (which you have not answered) who could see the play clearly? It is one thing to say, "why not ask for help?" It is another to know that that call was your call and no one is going to help you no matter what.

Peace

And the other side of the picture is that many umpires will always agree with the "calling official" no matter what they saw or did not see just to pacify the manager.

I don't subscribe to that theory because if I ask you what you saw on a particular play i want you to tell me the truth, but I've called with many (mostly veterans) who will say "if I ask you just agree with me".

I'm sure that is prevalent up and down the the food chain.

Nothing wrong with asking, but as Garth suggested, only ask when its appropriate. On this play, the umpire was correct in not asking since he had the best view of the play.

Thanks
David

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B

[i]

I don't subscribe to that theory because if I ask you what you saw on a particular play i want you to tell me the truth, but I've called with many (mostly veterans) who will say "if I ask you just agree with me".

I'm sure that is prevalent up and down the the food chain.

Nothing wrong with asking, but as Garth suggested, only ask when its appropriate. On this play, the umpire was correct in not asking since he had the best view of the play.

Thanks
David

Then why did he ask the shortstop whether he made the tag or not? In poker, that would be a "tell".

[David B]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Originally posted by David B

Then why did he ask the shortstop whether he made the tag or not? In poker, that would be a "tell".

His experience. Whether he saw the tag or not is not the point, he still had the best view of the play.

I've had a similiar play and I've asked either f6 or f4 about the tag. Doesn't mean I didn't see it, just wanted to know what they saw. Maybe I missed it, but that doesn't change the call.

I'm sure this umpire has been around the block with these players many many times, just as the guys that I've asked, I knew them very well from having called them through HS and college. My experience gives me lots of leeway in dealing with the players and coaches.

A couple of others have said they would never ask a player, that's fine too. Everyone has their own style. Mine is to interact with the players during the game. That's why I enjoy the game so much after many years of calling.

When I no longer enjoy it, I'll start coaching my son's teams. (g)

Thanks
David

[jicecone]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Originally posted by David B

Then why did he ask the shortstop whether he made the tag or not? In poker, that would be a "tell".

This isn't poker!

This has happen to me, and basically it's telling the player hey, I made the best call I could, based upon the information that was avaiable at the time I needed to make a decision. It may not be the decision you like or dislike but it the decision were going with.

Very very seldom do good players come back and say anything except, "hey I can deal with that." Why? Because they see the way I work and that I am given my best effort. They understand that sometimes things just happen out there and no matter how hard you try, it just doesn't go perfectly. They understand the game and repect the hard work the officials give, when it's given, much much more than the media, fan and monday morning officials on the internet, ever will.

Once again, THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD!!! Some will NEVER accept this and this is not meant to be personal.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by mbyron

I was surprised at Greg Gibson's call at 2B last night. Replay showed that Biggio (Astro's F4) missed the tag on a Molina by at least 3 inches. LaRussa came out to argue, naturally, but apparently didn't ask Gibson to get help.

Biggio has been in the majors a long time and give him credit for "selling the call".

Another F4 might not have received the same result. Yes, Greg Gibson was out of position on the play but it is his call. It should have been an "expected call" but the way the play developed, the defense proved to you that is was not EXPECTED.

Therefore, since Gibson was out of position his experience and training tell him to "look for other evidence" to aid him.

The "Other Evidence" was Biggio selling the call. If you noticed Gibson's call came after Biggio showed him the ball and sold the call. Gibson then gave the emphatic OUT signal. I give Gibson credit because even though he was out of position, he did not panic, "weighed" the evidence as best he could and then SOLD the OUT call.

We know how volatile LaRussa can get, so Gibson by giving the emphatic out call, did not get a REAL argument from LaRussa.

IMO, we as amateurs learned a good lesson.

In umpiring many games it is a fact that we are going to be out of position during the course of the season. When we are out of position and the call is OURS to make, do what Gibson did. Do not panic, "weigh" the evidence (players expression/gestures) and then right or wrong SELL the call. Even if you are wrong, for the most part you will not get a heated argument as evidenced by LaRussa.



Pete Booth

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Jeff missed the point that the 1BU may have had a better view. He assumed he couldn't have and we were suggesting that he might have. We don't know for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that these guys are watching their partner's backs. Yes, he has primary coverage, but if there is no immediate play, trained eyes follow the ball. We can't help it, that little thing can hurt when we don't watch it.

If the first base umpire is doing his job, there is a possible play at first right? Why would he be looking at a tag at second? Now if he is not looking (which I believe there was a possible play a first base), how is anyone going to help this umpire? Now I did not see the play live, I am not sure. I thought this was a hit ball and a force play at second base. If that is the case, why would the first base umpire look at second base?

Peace

[renrodb]

Runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs. Ball hit back to pitcher, he trows to SHORTSTOP covering 2nd and throws wide towards 1st pulling SHORTSTOP off base, who then tries to tag runner from first while falling to the ground. Umpire signals safe because SHORTSTOP was nowhere near 2nd when he had the ball. Umpire then signals out when he thought SHORTSTOP tagged runner while falling to ground. Firstbase Umpire Tim M. was setup in the A slot when ball was hit. He then comes to his position to make a possible call at first on the back end of the double play. What do you think he is watching while he is moving to his position to make his expected call. I think he is watching the TRAIN WRECK at second, not taking his eye off the ball and play toward first until the SHORTSTOP releases the ball toward first, which never happened. In the replay angle that showed the SHORTSTOP missing the tag you can see Tim M. in the background (the camera angle was from the left field side). I think Tim M. had a perfect view of what happened, but was never asked so no information exchanged. The theory of "this is my call so I'M going to make it" without any help no matter how bad the train wreck looks is an EGO problem. What happened from that point is now we have 1 out and runners on first and third instead of bases loaded and NOBODY out.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by renrodb
Runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs. Ball hit back to pitcher, he trows to SHORTSTOP covering 2nd and throws wide towards 1st pulling SHORTSTOP off base, who then tries to tag runner from first while falling to the ground. Umpire signals safe because SHORTSTOP was nowhere near 2nd when he had the ball. Umpire then signals out when he thought SHORTSTOP tagged runner while falling to ground. Firstbase Umpire Tim M. was setup in the A slot when ball was hit. He then comes to his position to make a possible call at first on the back end of the double play. What do you think he is watching while he is moving to his position to make his expected call. I think he is watching the TRAIN WRECK at second, not taking his eye off the ball and play toward first until the SHORTSTOP releases the ball toward first, which never happened. In the replay angle that showed the SHORTSTOP missing the tag you can see Tim M. in the background (the camera angle was from the left field side). I think Tim M. had a perfect view of what happened, but was never asked so no information exchanged. The theory of "this is my call so I'M going to make it" without any help no matter how bad the train wreck looks is an EGO problem. What happened from that point is now we have 1 out and runners on first and third instead of bases loaded and NOBODY out.

Once again, and again and again and again

THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD!!! Some, will and can't EVER accept this.

He may or may not have seen the entire play, we will never know because NO ONE ever asked.

"What happened from that point is now we have 1 out and runners on first and third instead of bases loaded and NOBODY out."

I have to ask, who is "we"? Your team? Because if that is the case,.........and again and again and again.......

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

from jicecone
This isn't poker!

This has happen to me, and basically it's telling the player hey, I made the best call I could, based upon the information that was avaiable at the time I needed to make a decision. It may not be the decision you like or dislike but it the decision were going with.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure that you read my post because your reply was way off the mark. He asked the shortstop if he tagged him after he made the call. He wasn't trying to tell him that he did the best he could, he was looking for substantiation. The call was complete and he was just trying to feel good about it. C'mon!



Jeff, again you are assuming that these guys umpire like you. Review the experience on that field, how many crew chiefs, former crew chiefs and experienced playoff umpires were on the field? They are not taught to wear blinders. With a six man system, the right field umpire would be looking right at it. The play at first was inconsequential and we learn as rookies to let the ball lead you to the action. Besides, the replay clearly showed that the umpire at first had a look at it. Please stop telling us how it was supposed to have happened. It happened differently and MLB umpires are trained to follow the ball. This is not even a matter of A2D, it didn't happen your way.

[mcrowder]

Pete - it was Adam Everett, not Craig Biggio... which invalidates that entire line of thought.

I'll say again... U2 KNEW he did not see the tag (my evidence - the lack of a tag). Most of us who have done this for a while KNOW when we are straightlined. Most of us, when this happens, have no recourse most of the time... but when we do (when the straightlined play is visible by another umpire), we ask for help (this includes, predominately, the "normal" help calls listed above, but is not limited to just those calls). An umpire in MLB is certainly likely to be much better than almost all of us... but should also know when we was straightlined.

Like it was mentioned above - an umpire needs 2 things to ask for help... 1 - Didn't actually see what he called (present in this case), and 2 - the likelihood that another umpire saw, or could have seen, the play better (also present in this case). While I'm not positive McClelland had a view of the tag/no-tag, I would think it LIKELY, considering that he's tracking the ball once he gets into position for the DP. And while it's possible he was still setting up position, and DIDN'T see the tag/no-tag, there is enough of a chance that he DID see it that U2 should ask.

But lost, and not mentioned, in all of this is the existence of a 6th umpire. U9 probably had the best angle of all on this, and had no other responsibilities on this play. It's highly likely that he DID see this. The question then becomes - did he (or McClelland) have a good enough view from 90 or 120 feet away to see for certain that there was no tag.

But there's no question in my mind that U2 should have asked.

(PS - this is not sour grapes from a Cards fan. I'm a lifelong Astro fan.)

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

I believe that I mentioned the right field umpire above.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Jeff, again you are assuming that these guys umpire like you.

I think the only person making assumptions is you. I am giving you what the mechanics are.

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Review the experience on that field, how many crew chiefs, former crew chiefs and experienced playoff umpires were on the field? They are not taught to wear blinders. With a six man system, the right field umpire would be looking right at it.

I honestly do not know what you are talking about. If these umpires have been versed in 6 Man mechanics, then I am sure they are not trying to watch all over the field. Now you suggest the RF Umpire can see this play? The RF Umpire is probably 150 feet away from the play. He also is not in a very good angle either. You want an umpire over 100 feet away from a play making a call? You have got to be kidding me.

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
The play at first was inconsequential and we learn as rookies to let the ball lead you to the action. Besides, the replay clearly showed that the umpire at first had a look at it. Please stop telling us how it was supposed to have happened. It happened differently and MLB umpires are trained to follow the ball. This is not even a matter of A2D, it didn't happen your way.

You do sound like a rookie, because you do not follow the ball most of the time. You actually watch "off ball" most of the time or watch the players to determine. If you always watch the ball you are going to miss many plays like obstruction and interference calls. You might even miss whether a runner is going to advance bases, which will help in anticipating a play at a certain base. Lastly, I am not telling you what to do. Do what you want to on that field. I can just suggest that you might get in a lot of trouble if you ever work 6 man, 4 man or 3 man and you are having umpires all over the field watching plays that are clearly out of their area or they are in a bad angle to help on. I worked more 3 man this year than I ever did in one season and I even worked 4 man. I can tell you I could not help on many plays from my position. This is not about me. This is about what the mechanics are and what is taught. Do you have any evidence that a RF or LF umpire can give help? There has to be some reference somewhere right? I have never heard a RF or LF umpire making a call or helping a base umpire.

Peace

[David B]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Pete - it was Adam Everett, not Craig Biggio... which invalidates that entire line of thought.

I'll say again... U2 KNEW he did not see the tag (my evidence - the lack of a tag). Most of us who have done this for a while KNOW when we are straightlined. Most of us, when this happens, have no recourse most of the time... but when we do (when the straightlined play is visible by another umpire), we ask for help (this includes, predominately, the "normal" help calls listed above, but is not limited to just those calls). An umpire in MLB is certainly likely to be much better than almost all of us... but should also know when we was straightlined.

Like it was mentioned above - an umpire needs 2 things to ask for help... 1 - Didn't actually see what he called (present in this case), and 2 - the likelihood that another umpire saw, or could have seen, the play better (also present in this case). While I'm not positive McClelland had a view of the tag/no-tag, I would think it LIKELY, considering that he's tracking the ball once he gets into position for the DP. And while it's possible he was still setting up position, and DIDN'T see the tag/no-tag, there is enough of a chance that he DID see it that U2 should ask.

But lost, and not mentioned, in all of this is the existence of a 6th umpire. U9 probably had the best angle of all on this, and had no other responsibilities on this play. It's highly likely that he DID see this. The question then becomes - did he (or McClelland) have a good enough view from 90 or 120 feet away to see for certain that there was no tag.

But there's no question in my mind that U2 should have asked.

(PS - this is not sour grapes from a Cards fan. I'm a lifelong Astro fan.)

This makes no sense so I give up. You guys that want to ask another umpire can go ahead.

Just don't be expecting to move up to the next level because it won't happen.

Guys that are good umpires should know that when you're at first you might have a look at second, but you cannot tell if there is a tag or not.

Last year in HS playoffs, I know of three times I couldn't tell if there was a tag, one time that I actually know there was not a tag on a play at second.

In all three of those I asked and the umpires said there was a tag. And on none of the plays was there any argument from the coach who was at 3rd.

But I will continue to teach, its your call, make the call using the best judgement, etc., and move on.

I can just see the circus with U2 calling time, running out to U? in right field asking him, "did you see the tag?", sorry, I'm laughing now just imagining that.

When does the WS start? I can't wait to see how many times the best in the profession ask for help.

Thanks
David

[SanDiegoSteve]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B

Last year in HS playoffs, I know of three times I couldn't tell if there was a tag, one time that I actually know there was not a tag on a play at second.

In all three of those I asked and the umpires said there was a tag. And on none of the plays was there any argument from the coach who was at 3rd.

[/B]

David, are you saying that you asked the umpires between innings or after the game, or did you mean you asked for help? I didn't get your meaning here. Thanks.

Steve