NLCS-Game 6 (and final)

[mbyron]

I was surprised at Greg Gibson's call at 2B last night. Replay showed that Biggio (Astro's F4) missed the tag on a Molina by at least 3 inches. LaRussa came out to argue, naturally, but apparently didn't ask Gibson to get help.

Is that not done in MLB? I kept thinking: surely U1 saw that there was no tag, and merely asking him would have done the trick. It was a force play and so Gibson had to watch the base, until the play blew up in his face. He was instantly straightlined. You can't blame him for the call, but why didn't he get help?

[NC*BLUE]

Did anyone see when the camera cut to the second baseman, the umpire coming up to him and asking him "Did you tag him" (you can clearly read his lips saying this) If he was that unsure with his call that he wanted the second basemans opinion then why did he not ask for help when he was asked to by Larussa?

[David B]

Originally posted by NC*BLUE
Did anyone see when the camera cut to the second baseman, the umpire coming up to him and asking him "Did you tag him" (you can clearly read his lips saying this) If he was that unsure with his call that he wanted the second basemans opinion then why did he not ask for help when he was asked to by Larussa?

If he was asking, that's probably not uncommon.
We already had one thread messed up with it, but
there's our friend the "expected call"

I've done the same many times (just didn't get caught on camera) asking a guy did you really tag him etc.,

The good thing is they always say yes I did (g)

Thanks
David

*Disclaimer - this post is in no way intended for young umpires and they should never ask a player anything*

[NC*BLUE]

OK

But why not ask for help, considering the importance of the game and the fact the he was sheilded from the tag.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by NC*BLUE
OK

But why not ask for help, considering the importance of the game and the fact the he was sheilded from the tag.

Why are you worried about it? For God's sake, the Cards sucked and didn't deserve to win anyway.

Boy, I can't wait for the "arm chair umpires" to complain during the World Series. Get your TIVO's ready, folks - this looks to be messy!

[NC*BLUE]

Wow another brilliant reply. Seems there cannot be a civil conversation and some thoughtful insight on a situation without bringing things to the standards that is criticized of other forums. I can give a rats a$$ of the play. But found it interesting with the get it right at all cost that he didnt ask for help.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Well, some veterans believe that those watching expect a certain call to be made rather than the one that actually happened. Their millieu feel that it is more important to do what is expected rather than what is fair.

Others subscribe to the Dave Yeast camp. Bust your ***, get in position and work together to call the game correctly. Major League Baseball also ascribes to this method. Sometimes egos get in the way of making the proper call.

I saw the call and it looks like that's what happened. If you see a player a dozen or more times a year, you'll establish respect for the others' honesty. It is likely that he asked him just to sell himself on the call - he's human after all and this is a pressure situation. We've all made calls that make us second guess what really happened. Maybe we were too quick or just blinded by a movement we didn't anticipate. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he was working where few of us dare to dream. He could have asked for help, but they've also been taught to offer it as a crew. Like the dropped third strike, they have subtle signals for conferencing. Maybe be 1BU didn't have a clean look.

I'll agree that it was the expected call. The replay also showed that it was the wrong call. We don't have video on many high school fields, but I've been haunted by college tapes that showed my crew kicking one. We remember the bad ones for a long time- so do those watching. A2D.

[David B]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Well, some veterans believe that those watching expect a certain call to be made rather than the one that actually happened. Their millieu feel that it is more important to do what is expected rather than what is fair.

Others subscribe to the Dave Yeast camp. Bust your ***, get in position and work together to call the game correctly. Major League Baseball also ascribes to this method. Sometimes egos get in the way of making the proper call.

I saw the call and it looks like that's what happened. If you see a player a dozen or more times a year, you'll establish respect for the others' honesty. It is likely that he asked him just to sell himself on the call - he's human after all and this is a pressure situation. We've all made calls that make us second guess what really happened. Maybe we were too quick or just blinded by a movement we didn't anticipate. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since he was working where few of us dare to dream. He could have asked for help, but they've also been taught to offer it as a crew. Like the dropped third strike, they have subtle signals for conferencing. Maybe be 1BU didn't have a clean look.

I'll agree that it was the expected call. The replay also showed that it was the wrong call. We don't have video on many high school fields, but I've been haunted by college tapes that showed my crew kicking one. We remember the bad ones for a long time- so do those watching. A2D.

I can probably say that the same call would be made in NCAA (even though I'm sure Dave Yeast would disagree)

So basically we're saying the umpire not only didn't hustle (to get into position), but also that he was in the wrong position?

But basically, that's his call, you don't ask for help on a judgement call where basically no one else is looking.

When you've been around the game as much as these guys, (at least I know its that way with me and they've done more ball than I) you're there, its not your call and you're not really worried about it because you know he's going to make the right call.

And I should add, a good coach knows that and is not going to ask him to "ask for help" on a basic play.

The only guy that's got the pressure is the one making the call.

Thanks
David

[NC*BLUE]

WWTB

Thanks for the reply, refreshing to see one thats not slamming someone. I understand the "expected call". But it also seems that this wasnt a routine "expected play - second baseman off balanced to apply a tag- So as I have been told by someone that "No umpire of any ilk would ask for help on a call that is this basic. That is the major difference between umpires that work "real" (tm) baseball and small diamond guys." I will A2D

[jicecone]

Originally posted by NC*BLUE
OK

But why not ask for help, considering the importance of the game and the fact the he was sheilded from the tag.

Because, and I quote, "if he gonna be out, he's gonna be out."

If Larussa didn't ask, why would the umpire? Do you really want the game to come to this, "I got an out , unless someone else has something different."!!! How about this, "Blue, that looked like a strike, can you get help with that pitch?" "Sure coach, does any other umpire have a different call?"

Where does this need sickness for perfection, in an unperfect sport stop?

Batters hit ONLY 30% or less. Which means, pitchers are only perfect 70 - 80% of the time. Now you take in consideration errors, mental mistakes and bad days, and I bet you have a League of nothing but players that are at best around 60% perfect. They call them professionals and the best.

Now when the officials turn out to be only 95 to 98% effective, and I bet its closer to 98%. Well they call those guys Bums, that are ruining a good game.

GO FIGURE??????????????????????

[David B]

Originally posted by NC*BLUE
WWTB

Thanks for the reply, refreshing to see one thats not slamming someone. I understand the "expected call". But it also seems that this wasnt a routine "expected play - second baseman off balanced to apply a tag- So as I have been told by someone that "No umpire of any ilk would ask for help on a call that is this basic. That is the major difference between umpires that work "real" (tm) baseball and small diamond guys." I will A2D

One can A2D is they like, but don't tell me that, go to the one who's a little higher than us - the guy who MADE the call! Did he ask for help - no. And the call at first first the other night? no. and etc.,

Call it "real" baseball or not, (well at least the Cardinals didn't) but the Astros aren't complaining.

And, BTW, the ones who ask for help, that's the small diamond guys ... that's why you don't see it on TV!

A2D

Thanks
David

*Disclaimer for young umpires - I don't mean to suggest that umpires can't ask for help; however, on a basic call, make the call.

[tjones1]

Originally posted by NC*BLUE
Did anyone see when the camera cut to the second baseman, the umpire coming up to him and asking him "Did you tag him" (you can clearly read his lips saying this) If he was that unsure with his call that he wanted the second basemans opinion then why did he not ask for help when he was asked to by Larussa?

I saw him ask. I wonder what made him to start questioning his call.

[JRutledge]

When was the time that every call should be up for debate or opinions from partners? How do we even know that any other umpire could have given any kind of help on this call? This play was a goofy play. How many times do you see a fielder *** over tea kettle to try to make a tag? This was a tough play to call and the umpire did the best job he could. Depending on where the other umpires were on the play (I did not see the play live) it is possible they did not have a good angle to help. I just think we take this "get it right" mentality too far. You cannot get help on every call. Also remember TV has the opportunity to make calls at slow motion and different angles. This umpire had one angle and one chance at this call.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally posted by JRutledge
When was the time that every call should be up for debate or opinions from partners? How do we even know that any other umpire could have given any kind of help on this call?

You don't have to think that umpires should get help on every call to think that Gibson should have gotten help on this one, because (a) it was a weird play where Gibson (through no fault of his) found himself out of position; (b) LaRussa came out to challenge it, and (c) Gibson was clearly wrong.

AND, this kind of play gives ammunition to those who want replay in baseball. The "get it right" mentality, whatever its defects, is designed in part to keep replay out of baseball.

I guess I still wonder what's the harm in asking? Sure, it's Gibson's call - he made it, on time, and sold it. But why not get help? "Tim, did you see the play?" McClelland: "no, I was set for the relay to first/ OR/ yes, I saw it, and he missed the tag." Either way works for me.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mbyron

You don't have to think that umpires should get help on every call to think that Gibson should have gotten help on this one, because (a) it was a weird play where Gibson (through no fault of his) found himself out of position; (b) LaRussa came out to challenge it, and (c) Gibson was clearly wrong.

AND, this kind of play gives ammunition to those who want replay in baseball. The "get it right" mentality, whatever its defects, is designed in part to keep replay out of baseball.

I guess I still wonder what's the harm in asking? Sure, it's Gibson's call - he made it, on time, and sold it. But why not get help? "Tim, did you see the play?" McClelland: "no, I was set for the relay to first/ OR/ yes, I saw it, and he missed the tag." Either way works for me.

He believes that he made the right call. The umpire is supposed to ask for help? If his partner's had some information, I can see them getting help. You do not just ask for help if you made a call that is your call and in your area. This is not a typical "ask for help" call. This was a tag play at the base the umpire is working, you do not ask for help on plays like that. You really only get that kind of help at first base and mechanically the PU is watching the line for plays at first (pulled foot, swipe tags). That does not happen at the other bases and home plate.

Peace