NLCS-Game 6 (and final)

[GarthB]

Originally posted by mbyron

You don't have to think that umpires should get help on every call to think that Gibson should have gotten help on this one, because (a) it was a weird play where Gibson (through no fault of his) found himself out of position; (b) LaRussa came out to challenge it, and (c) Gibson was clearly wrong.

AND, this kind of play gives ammunition to those who want replay in baseball. The "get it right" mentality, whatever its defects, is designed in part to keep replay out of baseball.

I guess I still wonder what's the harm in asking? Sure, it's Gibson's call - he made it, on time, and sold it. But why not get help? "Tim, did you see the play?" McClelland: "no, I was set for the relay to first/ OR/ yes, I saw it, and he missed the tag." Either way works for me.

As Jim Evans has noted, as many calls are called wrong after "huddles" as called right.

What happens when U2 thinks he's right, but goes to ask U3 who has a different opinion, but also thinks he's right? What assurance do we have that the new call is any better than the first? Not every instance will be black and white.

Does that matter in this ONE instance? You bet. Each time "help" is solicted outside of the normal "help" plays, it furthers the practice, encourages coaches to demand help on other, "non help" plays, encourages umpires to make calls without working as hard to get the proper look, slows down the game and does not guarantee that the right call will be made. Call it what you want, slippery slope, the camels nose in the tent...dangerous precedent.

There at times help is proper and has the best chance of getting a call right. This isn't one of them.

The imperfection of players, coaches and umpires are part of baseball. So is second guessing and griping.

Just play ball.

[mbyron]

That makes sense. Thanks, Garth.

[JJ]

I'm with Garth on this one. Every time you ask for help on this type of play you're opening a can of worms. I might ask U1 for help, and with his base responsibilities he might say, "I didn't see it". Meanwhile U3 is out there rolling his eyes, doffing his cap, tapping his foot, trying to get my attention because HE saw something. So I consult with him, but just as I'm about ready to say something, the LF line umpire comes running in with another view....you get the idea. And if the coach is convinced I missed the tag, he may keep asking for me to "get more help" till HE gets the answer he's looking for.
In this play, when I was asked to get help, my reply most likely would have been, "OK, but I'm only going to ask ONE guy - the guy that I think, with my years of umpiring experience having taught me who MIGHT have valuable input based on where HE was positioned. I'll use his input to help ME make MY decision." Now remember that scenario is based on the fairy tale that I'm the MLB umpire in THAT SINGLE SCENARIO. As an NCAA or FED or LL or PONY or USSSA umpire, I will most likely do what my supervisors have instructed me to do.
Now, let me strap on my bullet proof vest real quick before I read the ensuing replies...

JJ

[JJ]

Oh, and as to asking a player if I got the play right - I just don't ever do that anymore. Firstly, I can usually predict what the answer is going to be, based on whether the call went for or against them, and secondly, I don't need any more help second-guessing my calls. I'm already good at that!

JJ

[renrodb]

It was the short stop who was involved in the NO TAG play, not the second baseman. Also during the replay you can see Tim McClennons body with the replay that clearly showed the missed tag. There is NO HARM in U2 asking U1 if he saw anything, especially after the train wreck call that U2 made. All the mistakes that have happened during the post season just show that Major League Baseball doesn't have 42 Umpires capable of doing games without making mistakes. All that can be asked is get help and THEN make the best call possible. All this stuff about ego and these guys are the very best so why not believe them needs to be reevaluated.

[mcrowder]

I would not have had a problem asking for help in that situation... but I would not expect to get any. U1 was likely watching the base, as BR was about to hit (or miss) it when this play happened. We, as umpires, KNOW when we did not see what we called and when we DO see what we called. Even though he thought he'd made the right call (or the expected call, mentioned here --- disagree with that too, on a play like this one, SAFE is the expected call), he also likely KNEW that he didn't actually SEE the tag. In such a case, he should be able to set aside his ego to ask if U1 (or U9) saw space between the glove and the runner.

I'm not an advocate of going for help on anything close, but when you know you're straight-lined, there's no harm in asking if someone else wasn't.

[Jay R]

Here's my two cents. Gibson could not get a good look, not his fault. Why not call him safe unless you're certain he was tagged. If the pitcher throws the ball on target, there is no doubt. Penalize the defense for a poor throw unless you're certain the tag was applied.

[johnSandlin]

I love Dave Yeast's approach which I am going to echo something he said last year in Detroit at the NCAA meeting and that was bust your a** to get into the best possible position to get the play correct. Just assume or guess, get the call right.

Furthermore, if U1 was watching this play from last night's game then chances are, he was not doing his job at 1st base unless this runner involved at the play at 2nd was the only runner on the bases.

[jprideaux]

At the risk of getting flamed ...

Why does it seem to be OK (based on several previous posts) that Gibson asked Everett whether he tagged him but not OK to get help from McClellan? Most players will tell you what they want you to call, regardless of what happened. Either ask McClellan or ask nobody, IMHO.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

"Does that matter in this ONE instance? You bet. Each time "help" is solicted outside of the normal "help" plays, it furthers the practice, encourages coaches to demand help on other, "non help" plays, encourages umpires to make calls without working as hard to get the proper look, slows down the game and does not guarantee that the right call will be made. Call it what you want, slippery slope, the camels nose in the tent...dangerous precedent."



Garth - I'm not sure I've seen a "normal help play". If you have to ask for help, it's usually because something out of the ordinary happened. Contrary to your contention that it breeds lethargy, it makes everyone work harder. Do you want to be the guy that everyone always bails out?

Here's another example of umpires not wanting to change for the good of the game. So what, if coaches will be more demanding of our calls or consults? If you are ignorant of the outcome, don't let pride stand in the way of a good call. Ask and offer once the coach makes it clear that he wants you to be sure of the call. Yes, he is second guessing you, but fifty percent of those watching do that on our every call. If you are consistent and an effective communicator, this shouldn't be the dramedy that some envision.

JJ - we've both worked enough ball games with guys that'll say, "Don't come to me on a pulled foot at first - that's your call." I've also had partners tell me that they don't offer help on swipe tags at first. Usually, these are guys who appear on the local minor league umpire rosters. They believe that you should be in the position to make the call and that asking for help from 90 feet away just opens a can of worms. Again, so what? If you saw it and I ask, give me what you've got! We do that on fouls off the batter or uncaught third strikes already.

That didn't happen and as I've said, he made the call and didn't ask for help. We've already seen some bad mechanics and I'm pretty sure that this will be reviewed. These umpires did a pretty nice job. They were consistent and hustled like very few crews before. It was nice to see so little controversy in such a big series.

[JRutledge]

Would someone tell me who could see this clearly other than the umpire at second base? Forget whether help should have been asked for. Who would have had a look at this play? I doubt the plate umpire could see anything. I doubt that the first base umpire could see anything; he was watching his own base. Are you going to tell us that someone was in position or watching the play to know whether there was a tag or not? If someone was able to see the tag, why did they not help? Why did no one help on this play?

In all the mechanics I have worked, there are certain plays that would allow for help and other plays that would not allow. This is not a play that I can see how any other umpire could help. If you umpire enough, you know where your partner is located and what they are doing. You cannot ask your partner something you know they cannot help you on.

Peace

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Jeff, I think you are correct in your assumption that not all plays can be assisted. Earlier in this thread there was speculation that 1BU could have helped. Obviously these umpires are very talented and believe in their abilities. We are not questioning his talent or the need for an extra set of eyes on every play.

Some of us know that despite years of training, we sometimes anticipate a call and it makes us look bad. We hustle, get the predicted angle and make our call. Then we hear the catcalls and see the manager or player arguing it with a whole lot of zeal. I'm confident in my abilities but recognize that I make mistakes and may need help. When I see the reaction and have capable partners, it doesn't hurt to ask. Thier support may be all that is required to end the query. That was my point.

It's a great game, isn't it?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
Jeff, I think you are correct in your assumption that not all plays can be assisted. Earlier in this thread there was speculation that 1BU could have helped. Obviously these umpires are very talented and believe in their abilities. We are not questioning his talent or the need for an extra set of eyes on every play.

Some of us know that despite years of training, we sometimes anticipate a call and it makes us look bad. We hustle, get the predicted angle and make our call. Then we hear the catcalls and see the manager or player arguing it with a whole lot of zeal. I'm confident in my abilities but recognize that I make mistakes and may need help. When I see the reaction and have capable partners, it doesn't hurt to ask. Thier support may be all that is required to end the query. That was my point.

It's a great game, isn't it?

This is not a defense or an indictment of this umpires ability. I am asking (which you have not answered) who could see the play clearly? It is one thing to say, "why not ask for help?" It is another to know that that call was your call and no one is going to help you no matter what.

Peace

[rulesmaven]

Is this really and "if he's gonna be out, he's gonna be out situation"?

I would hope not. This was exactly the opposite -- an ususual play. I can accept that many times perception is reality, but not on the play in question.

As for the question whether he should have gotten help, I guess I'd analyze it like this. Ump must ask himself two simple questions: (1) do I need help, and (2) was anyone in better position than me to see the play? If the answer to EITHER question is no, I think the umpire has an OBLIGATION to not ask for help. Asking for help to answer the second question, where the ump thinks the answer is no, is a big bad can of worms, IMHO.

Everyone talks as though asking for help should be the default, because the game was important, etc. I disagree (other than in the situation where question 2 might be answered differently in an important game due to an extra umpire on the field).

[GarthB]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
"Does that matter in this ONE instance? You bet. Each time "help" is solicted outside of the normal "help" plays, it furthers the practice, encourages coaches to demand help on other, "non help" plays, encourages umpires to make calls without working as hard to get the proper look, slows down the game and does not guarantee that the right call will be made. Call it what you want, slippery slope, the camels nose in the tent...dangerous precedent."



Garth - I'm not sure I've seen a "normal help play".

Check Swing, Swipe Tag/pulled foot at first...etc. These are among what I mean when I use the term "normal help play." If there is another, more authoritative meaning, I am unware of it."

These are plays in which it is more normal, usual, if you will, to see partners helping out on a call. The play in question in this thread is not.


Thanks,