Phil Cuzzi...

[kcs_hiker]

tossing Edmonds?? It seemed obvious to me that Cuzzi blew the previous pitch which had been a strike all night... and was performing the classic 'make-up' call.

I know I know, professional umpires don't do make-ups... I don't believe it. I don't think it's intentional, it's just a matter of realizing you blew the last pitch, so the next pitch that's even close be a strike. For that matter, I thought he could've called a swinging strike... which would've taken the pressure off a bit.

Still, Cuzzi lost his cool a bit.. he shouldn't have tossed Edmonds. Edmonds is a classy guy who I've almost never seen argue with a call...

All that said, the Redbirds are choking it away yet again. Too old, too injured seems to be the theme this year.

[kcs_hiker]

I didn't read down far enough,, I see it's already been discussed.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by kcs_hiker
tossing Edmonds?? It seemed obvious to me that Cuzzi blew the previous pitch which had been a strike all night... and was performing the classic 'make-up' call.

I know I know, professional umpires don't do make-ups... I don't believe it. I don't think it's intentional, it's just a matter of realizing you blew the last pitch, so the next pitch that's even close be a strike. For that matter, I thought he could've called a swinging strike... which would've taken the pressure off a bit.

Still, Cuzzi lost his cool a bit.. he shouldn't have tossed Edmonds. Edmonds is a classy guy who I've almost never seen argue with a call...

All that said, the Redbirds are choking it away yet again. Too old, too injured seems to be the theme this year.

Well it is quite obvious that you "know" less about umpiring than you think. What is this, "I don't think it's intentional" bullcrap? If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct. Especially at the MLB level.

What is this subliminal unintentional disease you are talking about?

I am totally amazed how one's fingers can type thoughts that a normal mind couldn't even comprehend.!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by jicecone

Well it is quite obvious that you "know" less about umpiring than you think. What is this, "I don't think it's intentional" bullcrap? If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct. Especially at the MLB level.

Jicecone, it appeared to me that the strike call on the 3-1 pitch to Edmunds was INTENTIONAL. The reason I say that is that pitch didn't appear to be even questionable and Cuzzi was taking a lot of "crap" from LaRussa as well as some of the other Cardinal Players all game long. Also, LaRussa was shooting his mouth off about the umpiring the previous day. Apparently both LaRussa and Edmunds didn't get the message.

You would think that after Cuzzi threw out LaRussa and he called the 3-1 pitch to Edmunds a strike, that Edmunds would have got "the message" and knew what was going on and simply said nothing and get ready for the 3-2 pitch.

It's typical LaRussa blame everyone but himself and his players. The Cardinal hitters are 2 for a million with runners in scoring position.

Pete Booth

[kcs_hiker]

Originally posted by jicecone

Well it is quite obvious that you "know" less about umpiring than you think. What is this, "I don't think it's intentional" bullcrap? If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct. Especially at the MLB level.

What is this subliminal unintentional disease you are talking about?

I am totally amazed how one's fingers can type thoughts that a normal mind couldn't even comprehend.!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh come on now. Cuzzi had been calling that low strike the ENTIRE game. That's the call that everyone was complaining about. He missed ball three on Edmonds.. Wheeler (it WAS Wheeler wasn't it?) and Ausmus were obviously surprised that it wasn't called... then on ball four, he calls a strike that really wasn't close (not nearly as close as the calls that got LaRussa tossed) ... now you tell me, what was Cuzzi thinking? I think YOU hit it on the head when you said "If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct." Right. I agree... that was the problem.

So far as make-up calls go... can you truly tell me that they never happen? I've coached, played, and umpired for 35 years. Perhaps it's one of those things we all know happens... but we just don't like to talk about it.

[mattmets]

Originally posted by kcs_hiker
Still, Cuzzi lost his cool a bit.. he shouldn't have tossed Edmonds. Edmonds is a classy guy who I've almost never seen argue with a call...

A classy guy doesn't call an umpire the names Edmonds called Phil, nor does he call him female anatomy from the dugout.

I DESPISE the Yankees. But when it comes to arguing with umpires, Joe Torre is the epitome of class.

[harmbu]

How about when Cuzzi tossed LaRussa? First he yanks off his mask and looks for confrontation by yelling into the dugout, then when LaRussa comes out he wants to "do the admirable thing" and walk away and avoid confrontation. If anyone is able to split their TV screen, I think it would be interesting to see the pitches that led to the ejections of LaRussa and Edmonds. The two pitches were in the exact same spot. One was called a ball to Berkman and the other was called a strike on Edmonds. I am not saying that neither of them deserved to be tossed (because they did). I am just saying that both situations could have both been avoided if Cuzzi had had any consistency at all. After the first ejection, it was obvious that he was looking to eject anyone else. Let's just hope there is not a questionable fair/foul call down the right field line in game 5 tonight. Cuzzi just might take it upon himself to eject the entire dugout if they so much as ask him to get help.

[LMan]

Originally posted by kcs_hiker
I've coached, played, and umpired for 35 years. Perhaps it's one of those things we all know happens... but we just don't like to talk about it. [/B]

ahhh, here we go.....

[Rich]

Originally posted by harmbu
How about when Cuzzi tossed LaRussa? First he yanks off his mask and looks for confrontation by yelling into the dugout, then when LaRussa comes out he wants to "do the admirable thing" and walk away and avoid confrontation. If anyone is able to split their TV screen, I think it would be interesting to see the pitches that led to the ejections of LaRussa and Edmonds. The two pitches were in the exact same spot. One was called a ball to Berkman and the other was called a strike on Edmonds. I am not saying that neither of them deserved to be tossed (because they did). I am just saying that both situations could have both been avoided if Cuzzi had had any consistency at all. After the first ejection, it was obvious that he was looking to eject anyone else. Let's just hope there is not a questionable fair/foul call down the right field line in game 5 tonight. Cuzzi just might take it upon himself to eject the entire dugout if they so much as ask him to get help.

So LaRussa should just be allowed to scream, scream, scream from the dugout.

LaRussa had plenty of opportunity to shut his mouth, but didn't. Edmonds was asked to get back in the box at least twice and he didn't. Who's in charge in your world?

[mattmets]

The pitches were not in the same spot. The pitch to Edmonds was clearly much closer to the plate than the one to Berkman was. Also, I would love to know how everyone here claims that Phil ran over like a bat out of hell and started yelling at LaRussa, without knowing what Tony said. We have no idea what kind of names/language came out of that dugout. Phil does. I highly doubt he's running around in the LCS looking for people to throw out.

[harmbu]

My mistake. Cuzzi called every pitch correctly in game 4. We can only hope that the same is done in game 5. I need to remove the name Coach from my signature so that my opinions won't be immediately ignored on this board.

[Edited by harmbu on Oct 17th, 2005 at 10:51 AM]

[kcs_hiker]

Originally posted by mattmets
The pitches were not in the same spot. The pitch to Edmonds was clearly much closer to the plate than the one to Berkman was. Also, I would love to know how everyone here claims that Phil ran over like a bat out of hell and started yelling at LaRussa, without knowing what Tony said. We have no idea what kind of names/language came out of that dugout. Phil does. I highly doubt he's running around in the LCS looking for people to throw out.

I disagree on the pitch location. I thought they were both up and in...

LaRussa needed to be tossed. In fact, I suspect that was his whole purpose in going out there. He was hoping to rattle Cuzzi and get the next call... which he did on ball three to Edmonds.

I think Cuzzi was a bit rattled... he blew the ball three call, and then blew the next pitch as well. Edmonds WAS stupid, and out of character as well, and after reading what he apparently said, deserved to be tossed. I think the Cardinals cannot believe that they are on the brink of elimination because they can't buy a hit in a critical situation... and are letting their frustration get the better of them.

And I apoligise for mentioning that I have been in and around the game for a number of years. Apparently that raises red flags with some of you other guys that have been in and around the game for a number of years.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
LaRussa had plenty of opportunity to shut his mouth, but didn't. Edmonds was asked to get back in the box at least twice and he didn't. Who's in charge in your world?

LaRussa was "warned" at least twice as well. Just before he was tossed, Cuzzi told him, "You're going to go" ... response from Tony ... "You're going to go" ... response from Tony ... Big Finger ... Tony runs out of the dugout.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by jicecone

Well it is quite obvious that you "know" less about umpiring than you think. What is this, "I don't think it's intentional" bullcrap? If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct. Especially at the MLB level.

Jicecone, it appeared to me that the strike call on the 3-1 pitch to Edmunds was INTENTIONAL. The reason I say that is that pitch didn't appear to be even questionable and Cuzzi was taking a lot of "crap" from LaRussa as well as some of the other Cardinal Players all game long. Also, LaRussa was shooting his mouth off about the umpiring the previous day. Apparently both LaRussa and Edmunds didn't get the message.

You would think that after Cuzzi threw out LaRussa and he called the 3-1 pitch to Edmunds a strike, that Edmunds would have got "the message" and knew what was going on and simply said nothing and get ready for the 3-2 pitch.

It's typical LaRussa blame everyone but himself and his players. The Cardinal hitters are 2 for a million with runners in scoring position.

Pete Booth

Don't have a problem with "intentional" Peter, I have had to utilize that form of getting a message across myself, in some games.

My point, was the implication that umpires make calls because of some subliminal reason that no one can explain, as kcs_hiker was trying to imply here.

[TBBlue]

It's quite simple. The Angels had a bad series. The Cardinals are in the middle of having a bad series.

It doesn't happen often (I've never seen it) but the ALCS crew had a bad series. I can't comment on NLCS because yesterday was the only game I saw.

Bottom line is the Angels and Cardinals are still two of the best teams in baseball (any level). Based on what I've seen the White Sox are the best.

The ALCS crew are still 6 of the best umpires at all levels. They just had a bad series. It's a shame it was in the LCS, and may cost them in the future, but that is the bottom line.