Three Man Mechanics:

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by orioles35
With a runner on 2nd, isn't the umpire in "C" now in the way of the runner's line of vision with the pitcher when leading off?

NOt any more than the umpire in the same position with a two-umpire crew.

EMD -- the positioning of BU (2-umpire) and U3 (3-umpire) is the same with R2 -- "regular" C, not Deep C. Deep C, or Deep B is used with R1 only.

Jerry -- The CCA does not suggest changing positions based on the number of outs. Some books do suggest this, however. Also, I'm curious as to which published book recommends going to the umpire on the line for a check swing. I don't recall reading this (although I've heard of it).

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by orioles35
With a runner on 2nd, isn't the umpire in "C" now in the way of the runner's line of vision with the pitcher when leading off?

Yes, we may also be blocking the shortstop's view of the plate. I position myself where I feel I need to be and if I'm blocking the runner or the SS view, I will take a step or two in either direction so that "everyone is happy"

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
[/i]Also, I'm curious as to which published book recommends going to the umpire on the line for a check swing. I don't recall reading this (although I've heard of it).

Bob,
Our Instructions to Umpires packet for the Northern League listed this mechanic. I believe Afilliated ball uses the same mechanic at the AA and AAA levels.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jerry
To Rich Fronheiser:

With two out, and runners at R2 or R2-R3, the umpire positions should be A/C; not B/D. At higher levels, defensive infielders are taught to automatically make the 3rd out at 1st base. It would also be very unusual for an attempted "sacrifice" or bunt situation with 2-outs. Hence the logic behind putting U3 inside. By using the A/C coverage, your crew is in much better position for outfield and the expected infield play.

Jerry

Please show me this in the CCA manual. Not saying there isn't more than one way to do things, but your post suggests that (just as mine may have, as well).

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Aug 3rd, 2005 at 07:48 PM]

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Please show me this in the CCA manual. Not saying there isn't more than one way to do things, but your post suggests that (just as mine may have, as well).
[/QUOTE]

Rich,
I don't mean to speak for Jerry but judging from his posts, he seems to follow the PRO 3 Man Mechanics, not CCA (College Mechanics). As someone pointed our previously, CCA does not change its positioning according to outs/count etc.

[mbyron]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

CCA gives U3 an option of B or C with R1 only.

I saw a AA game last night, and U3 was in deep B every time for R1 only. Looked a little weird to me, all the umpires on one side of the diamond.

[Sal Giaco]

MB,
With R1 only, I prefer deep B as well because it gives you an angle for steal play swipe tags. The only time I will move to deep C with R1 only is when there are two outs and a 3-2 count. In this particular situation, the PU signals he's staying home and the base umpires signal reverse rotation. Moving over to deep C helps me stay ahead of R1 in case he goes from first to third on a base hit.

Let me stress that this is a PRO 3 man mechanic and NOT a CCA mechanic.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
MB,
With R1 only, I prefer deep B as well because it gives you an angle for steal play swipe tags. The only time I will move to deep C with R1 only is when there are two outs and a 3-2 count. In this particular situation, the PU signals he's staying home and the base umpires signal reverse rotation. Moving over to deep C helps me stay ahead of R1 in case he goes from first to third on a base hit.

Let me stress that this is a PRO 3 man mechanic and NOT a CCA mechanic.

The higher the level of baseball, the more likely I am to work in deep B with R1 only. The swipe tag advantage, mentioned by Sal (and I think Bob Jenkins and I have talked about it) is undeniable.

Looks strange, i guess, but the coverages are completely unchanged.

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
3 man mechanics, as taught today, have nothing to do with the batter or the number of outs.

No runners or R3 only -- A/D
R1 only -- A/deep C
R1+R2 -- A/C
R1+R2+R3 -- A/C
R2 only -- deep B/D
R2+R3 -- deep B/D

To make it simple, anytime there is a runner at first base, the first base umpire is in A.

Sounds right to me. But some people feel the need to reinvent the wheel.. lol

With R2 and R3 having U2 in A makes no sense. If something were to happen, U2 in B makes better sense as then all bases and runners are covered in the event of something wierd happening. You have 2 runners "surrounded by 3 blues. Much better situation.

I also do not care for adjusting based on out/batter. U2 should be in either A or B and U3 in either C or D depending on the situation.

[Jerry]

To Rich and Sal:

You're correct, Sal. You and I are talking PBUC (Pro) mechanics. (Regarding where the field umpires are positioned, which is "situational" dependent. Also for going to the "man on the line" for checked swings.)

I understand that CCA and FED have somewhat different mechanics for their officials. So, not to be argumentative,it really depends on what level of ball you're officiating and what Umpire Manual you're referring to when speaking of mechanics and positioning.

The WBUA (www.wbua.org)utilizes the PBUC mechanics, and is what we teach our officials.

Jerry

[Rich]

Originally posted by Jerry
To Rich and Sal:

You're correct, Sal. You and I are talking PBUC (Pro) mechanics. (Regarding where the field umpires are positioned, which is "situational" dependent. Also for going to the "man on the line" for checked swings.)

I understand that CCA and FED have somewhat different mechanics for their officials. So, not to be argumentative,it really depends on what level of ball you're officiating and what Umpire Manual you're referring to when speaking of mechanics and positioning.

The WBUA (www.wbua.org)utilizes the PBUC mechanics, and is what we teach our officials.

Jerry

Personally, I'm happier with CCA mechanics with lower level ball. More "stuff" happens on the bases, even with 2 outs, and it makes more sense to have the umpires in B and D with R2+R3 than A and C.

As long as we are all (on the same crew, that is) singing from the same hymnsheet....

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1

Sounds right to me. But some people feel the need to reinvent the wheel.. lol

Jim,
Nobody here is reinventing the wheel. Jerry and I are talking about two different types of 3 man mechanics.

1. PBUC or PRO 3 Man - Situational mechanics with more advanced rotations. Ideal for higher levels of baseball with more experienced umpires who perhaps work the three man system throughout the year or are assigned with the same partners/crew for the season

2. CCA or College 3 Man - Standandized mechanics with basic positioning and rotations. Ideal for all levels of amateur baseball and for umpires that mainly work the two man system except for post season tournaments/playoff type assignments or who have different partners with varying degrees of experience

Both systems are excellent however, I would recommend most umpires learn the CCA 3 Man Mechanics first before trying any of the PRO 3 Man variations. Just my opinion

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
3 man mechanics, as taught today, have nothing to do with the batter or the number of outs.

No runners or R3 only -- A/D
R1 only -- A/deep C
R1+R2 -- A/C
R1+R2+R3 -- A/C
R2 only -- deep B/D
R2+R3 -- deep B/D

To make it simple, anytime there is a runner at first base, the first base umpire is in A.

This is the way I learned it. I call this "1st base preferred". I work one tournament a year with a group of umpires who learned it differently, and I call their method "3rd base preferred". They like to call it "keeping an umpire ahead of the runner".

No runners or R3 only -- A/D
R1 only -- A/deep C
R1+R2 -- B/D
R1+R2+R3 -- B/D
R2 only -- deep B/D
R2+R3 -- deep B/D

It's a subtle difference, but I adjust because it's easier for me to adjust than for them to do so (six of us working two fields over 4 days).

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

Jim,
Nobody here is reinventing the wheel. Jerry and I are talking about two different types of 3 man mechanics.

1. PBUC or PRO 3 Man - Situational mechanics with more advanced rotations. Ideal for higher levels of baseball with more experienced umpires who perhaps work the three man system throughout the year or are assigned with the same partners/crew for the season

2. CCA or College 3 Man - Standandized mechanics with basic positioning and rotations. Ideal for all levels of amateur baseball and for umpires that mainly work the two man system except for post season tournaments/playoff type assignments or who have different partners with varying degrees of experience

Both systems are excellent however, I would recommend most umpires learn the CCA 3 Man Mechanics first before trying any of the PRO 3 Man variations. Just my opinion

I know what you are saying Sal. Was just being kind of sarcastic in the reinventing the wheel comment. Rereading it, it didnot come off to well that way.. As said before Lah Meh..
I prefer the CCA mechanics myself. Fun part is we have a league around here that uses 3 man for the end of season City Championships. This is a little kid league. You should see the 3 man mechanics trying to be used when calling 3rd grade with the "no leading off, cannot come off the bag until ball leaves pitchers hand or else you are out" rule. I get a headache just thinking about it.

[Tim C]

So Jerry, your "upper level of ball", does that occur at your fantasy camps or in the baseball games played by women?

I think it is great that you teach NAPBL mechanics but how many umpires are in your group?





[Edited by Tim C on Aug 5th, 2005 at 09:49 AM]