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Sun Jun 26, 2005, 09:59pm
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Why would we as umpires be concerned with minimum player participation within any level of play? I, as an umpire, have not been asked or expected to keep track of player participation within any games that I have worked.
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Perfection is a goal which we work to attain NFHS/Little League 
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Sun Jun 26, 2005, 11:09pm
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Re: And,
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Who's job is it to track substitutions? (Hints below) The lineup card is essential to a minimum play requirement protest, whether you think it should be or not. In LL the umpire IS involved. Your personal dislike for the concept can't change that. LL rules state: LL REGULAR SEASON 4.19(f) NOTE 2: All Little League officials are urged to take precautions to prevent protests. When a protest situation is imminent, the potential offenders should be notified immediately. Example: Should a manager, official scorer, league official or umpire discover that a pitcher is ineligible at the beginning of the game, or will become ineligible during the game or at the start of the next inning of play, the fact should be brought to the attention of the manager of the team involved. Such action should not be delayed until the infraction has occurred. However, failure of personnel to notify the manager of the infraction does not affect the validity of the protest. LL TOURNAMENT RULES Protests C(3) NOTE 2: All officials, including all managers, coaches, scorekeepers, umpires, Tournament Directors, District Administrators, etc., should make every effort to prevent a situation that may result in the forfeiture of a game or suspension of tournament privileges. However, failure by any party to prevent such situations shall not affect the validity of a protest. General Hints on responsibilities: OBR: 3.06 The manager shall immediately notify the umpire in chief of any substitution and shall state to the umpire in chief the substitute's place in the batting order. LL: 3.06 The manager shall immediately notify the umpire-in-chief of any substitution and shall state to the umpire-in-chief the substitute's place in the batting order. OBR: 4.01 a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire in chief, in duplicate. b) Next, the visiting manager shall give his batting order to the umpire in chief, in duplicate. c) The umpire in chief shall make certain that the original and copies of the respective batting orders are identical, and then tender a copy of each batting order to the opposing manager. The copy retained by the umpire shall be the official batting order. The tender of the batting order by the umpire shall establish the batting orders. Thereafter, no substitutions shall be made by either manager, except as provided in the rules. LL 4.01 (a) the home team manager shall give the batting order in duplicate to the umpire-in-chief; (b) next, the visiting manager shall give the batting order in duplicate to the umpire-in-chief; (c) the umpire-in-chief shall make certain that the original and duplicate copies are the same, then provide a copy of each batting order to the opposing manager. The original copy retained by the umpire shall be the official batting order; OBR 9.04 a)The umpire in chief shall stand behind the catcher. (He usually is called the plate umpire.) His duties shall be to: 8) Inform the official scorer of the official batting order, and any changes in the lineups and batting order, on request; LL 9.04 The umpire-in-chief shall stand behind the catcher. This umpire usually is called the plate umpire. The umpire-in-chief's duties shall be to: (7) inform the official scorer of the official batting order; and any changes in the lineups and batting order, on request;
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 12:21am
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Re: Re: And,
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So along with keeping track of all the subs, and reentry and all, the umpire must write down somewhere when the players enter and leave the game? I would like to see that lineup card. Please cite the ruling that says that an umpire keeps track of how many innings a player plays. Quote:
So how is the umpire going to know that the pitcher is not elgible? Is the umpire supposed to watch every one of this team's games and keep track of how much this guy pitches? If the opposing manager tells the umpire that the pitcher is over the limit, then go and tell the pitcher's manager to take him out. Unless someone tells the umpire, how is he going to know? That is like saying drinking Pepsi at home before you go to the game is illegal. Ok well, how is the umpire supposed to know if someone drank Pepsi? Quote:
Quote:
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Instead of posting various rules, how about you cite the rule that says the umpire is in charge of making sure every gets their minimum play in.
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 07:41am
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Luke, I never said the umpire is responsible for knowing how many innings the kid plays. )BTW, the MPR rule also includes a requirement that the player complete one AB, defined as entering the box with a 0-0 count and either being put out or reaching base.)
Tee said it isn't an umpire's job. I was responding to that thought. I said that the lineup card is evidence and that keeping it IS the umpires job. I also posted the LL rules that said, in LL at least, an umpire IS responsible for preventing protests if possible. In LL, an umpire has responsibilities that he doesn't have in other organizations. Many experienced LL umpires DO keep track of when a sub was made. When they enter it on their card they note the inning (like T5, B3, or whatever). It is necessary, not only for the MPR rules, but for the substitution rules, pitching rules, and the SPR rule. If you don't want to do LL games, fine. If you don't understand LL rules and don't care to learn because you don't do LL, fine. But then don't interject yourself into situations you don't understand. [Edited by Rich Ives on Jun 27th, 2005 at 08:52 AM]
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 08:11am
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And Rich,
Your answer is complete bullsh1t.
This isn't about line-up cards: it is about someone trying to make a statement that an umpire is somehow involved in how many innings players play (or if they play at all). Keep trying bubba, this thread has nothing to do with keeping line-up cards. BTW, I KNOW all the OBR rules you quoted. Boooooring! If players and coaches didn't lie and cheat you wouldn't need umpires. [Edited by Tim C on Jun 27th, 2005 at 10:11 AM]
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 08:16am
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U of M Sam "Why would we as umpires be concerned with minimum player participation within any level of play? I, as an umpire, have not been asked or expected to keep track of player participation within any games that I have worked"
Tim "And, Sam that is the issue. It is not an umpire's job." The thread was posted exactly as above. Tim was responding to Sam when Sam stated that umpires are not concerned with nor keep track of, player participation. I doubt that LL umpires actually keep track of substitutions in anything other than tournament games. I never seen it done. Teams mostly go book to book in regards to lineup, subs, score, etc.
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Well I am certainly wiser than this man. It is only too likely that neither of us has any knowledge to boast of; but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas I am quite conscious of my ignorance. At any rate it seems that I am wiser than he is to this small extent, that I do not think that I know what I do not know. ~Socrates
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 09:38am
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Kaliix
Hey thanks for pointing out that my poor writing skills confused this a little.
I keep track of players on my line-up card. I do not, however, make any notations as to "when" a change occures. I have listed in a separate thread the "magic way" to keep a line-up card that is accurate and complete without taking an undue amount of time from the game. There is NO WAY by looking at my card that you could determine HOW MANY innings a player particiapted. You could dsee that the entered, or left, or even re-entered under some codes . . . you could not however know "how many" innings he played or the # of outs that there were when a player change was made. This thread is just another attempt by coaches to make sure that the other teams coach is not cheating. It is a league or tournament issue NOT an umpire issue. I don't give a flying fuk who plays in my game or how many innings they play. I, of course, would accept a protest from some poor rat that thought he was wronged.
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 10:29am
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Is there a minimum play rule for 10 yr old Dizzy Dean AllStar? Regular league season was 2 innings. I noticed that 3 players on our local AllStar team were on the bench the entire tournament games.
I'm just curious. Did the original poster ever get his question answered? Seems like we've strayed a bit from the topic; doesn't it?
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 11:21am
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Quote:
1.0 A player must play a minimun of 2 innings during the regular season. Up to 3 players from any local AllStar team, (pick one), can sit on the bench the entire tournament, under the following conditions: 1. Their mom is uglier than a starting players mom. 2. Their dad is NOT on the local board. 3. Their parents are not smart enough to actually look up rules of the League. 4. The League bought 3 extra uniforms and informed you that they must be worn. 5. The head coach is truly a self centered ego driven baseball maniac and knows that his 10yr old starters will be moving up to the Pros next year, and must be showcased as much as possible. 6. Someone named Burt & Jerry send email inquiries to Officiating.com
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 12:09pm
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I note that all those rules say SHOULD an umpire discover/happen upon/trip over something untoward......about a player's eligibility...etc. There's no requirement for an umpire to begin any investigations, as I see it.
I daresay I will NOT be making any inquiries along those lines before/during a game. I will, however, take a coach's protest and ensure it is delivered to the appropriate committee for resolution 
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 12:21pm
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Re: And Rich,
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Tee, by your own choice you do not do Little League and avoid Little League. So be it. That is your choice. HOWEVER, your lack of involvement makes for a lack of knowledge on how a LL game is administered. Stick to what you know and don't try to impose your views and methods on an organization you refuse to participate with or understand.
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 01:09pm
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Rich,
I have a few questions. Say the reserves are not listed on the lineup card. Just 9 names listed. 1. Is the umpire supposed to refuse to accept such a lineup card? 2. Is the umpire supposed to go to the dugout and count the number of players on the team? 3. Is he supposed to write in the names of the reserves himself? 4. If the lineup card does not have the reserves on it, how is the umpire supposed to keep track of minimum play? 5. What if the manager tells the bad players to come to the game, not in uniform and sit in the stands? He only wants the 9 best players in uniform. Then only the best players get to play. Then if one of the players gets hurt, the manager signals to one of the kids in the stands to change into his uniform. The manager then says "Hey, Johnny just showed up. Good timing, go play left field."
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Mon Jun 27, 2005, 01:11pm
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Re: Re: And,
Quote:
The dark side is definitely winning. Where's Hans, Luke and Chewbaca when you need them?
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GB
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