Minimum Play rule

[Tim C]

Little League Baseball (or little kid ball as you call it) has nothing to do with.

Now Little League UMPIRES, that has every thing to do with it!

If players and coaches did not lie and cheat you wouldn't even need umpires.



[Edited by Tim C on Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:35 AM]

[LMan]

Don't we have enough to do without doing the coach's job for him, too?

...how long before we are 'encouraged' to warm up pitchers between innings?

[mcrowder]

This has nothing to do with little league, and everything to do with umpires being asked to be hall-monitor for administrative nonsense. I'm hired to call a game, not babysit coaches. If a coach "cheats" in an administrative matter, let the league handle it.

If LL in particular is beginning to ask umpires to track administrative crap... well... just one more reason for good umpires to work elsewhere.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by LDUB

And I am still awaiting a respose to the questions I asked earlier.

How can an umpire keep track of minimum play if only the starters are listed on the lineup card?

Sorry,

My lineup card lists reserves.

-LL

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by LDUB

LLeaguer, why does the TD make you keep track of the minimum play, when you are only able to keep track of half of it? That makes no sense at all. Why not just tell the scorekeeper to do it all himself, and it the coach tries to make a wrong sub, to yell something out?

I am not the TD, nor have I asked this specific question of her, so I can only answer indirectly.

I've been umpiring in LL tournaments for 5 or 6 years, and I'm a junior umpire at these events. But when I step onto the field, I probably have more tournament experience than any of the participants. Off the field, the scorekeeper may have just shown up for her first tournament game ever, especially on the beginning days of the tournament.

In many cases, I can tell if the player has had one AB (PA, really). But if a player is being removed after only one inning on defense, I'll ask the scorekeeper the specific quetion, "Did she bat last inning?" It's really not very hard. But if anybody has a suggestion on how I could efficiently keep track of PAs as well, I'm listening.

I'm not saying every umpire should do this. I'm doing a job that the TD has asked for. The real downside is that the extra scrutiny slows the game down a little between innings.

-LL

[LMan]

my suggestion would be that if you insisted on some extra coin since you are now the UiC/Asst-Deputy-Junior-Scorekeeper, your TD would magically find a way to get the assigned scorekeeper to do his/her job

[LDUB]

Originally posted by LilLeaguer

Sorry,

My lineup card lists reserves.

-LL

You don't get it.

What happens if the manager brings out the lineup card with only 9 names on it. The reserves are not listed.

Are you going to go to the dugout and count how many reserves there are? Are you going to write down the reserves' names on the lineup card?

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by LMan
my suggestion would be that if you insisted on some extra coin since you are now the UiC/Asst-Deputy-Junior-Scorekeeper, your TD would magically find a way to get the assigned scorekeeper to do his/her job

Great idea. Now, pay did come up last night, though not exactly in this context. The game went very slowly and was a laugher. I asked for a 15% raise*, and she reminded me of her 50% kickback policy, so we agreed on a 30% gross (15% net) one-time raise. I'll be back out on Wednesday, so I'll work the same angle on the participation enforcement. I'll bet I can get the same deal.

(The umpire coordinator was a champ, though, and took our burger orders before the concession stand closed.)

Seriously, I'm not really trying to get out of this. It isn't burdensome, and I'm qualified to do it. Am I flouting tradition, or setting some outrageous precedent that you are afraid of? (Though I can't imagine that LL umpires are considered trend setters.) By counting innings am I neglecting a more important between-innings responsibility (beyond keeping the game moving, which does suffer)? Have I violated union rules or some professional ethic?

-LL

* Over LL base umpire rates, of course.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by LDUB

You don't get it.

Quite possibly.

Originally posted by LDUB
What happens if the manager brings out the lineup card with only 9 names on it. The reserves are not listed.

Are you going to go to the dugout and count how many reserves there are? Are you going to write down the reserves' names on the lineup card?

Perhaps it would be best to call it a roster sheet. Since this is a district tournament, each team has a pre-approved roster. Typically, each player is listed on the roster, with a notation if she cannot play (do to injury or absence, e.g.). Additionally, the players that are ineligible to pitch (due to pitching in prior days) are marked as well. The starting players are listed first, and the reserves at the bottom of the sheet. The original positions are also noted, but I only care about the batting order and the pitcher. The TD approves the roster sheets before the game begins and delivers them to the UiC before game time. I can ask her any questions I have at that time.

At the plate meeting, I ask each manager if the roster sheets are correct. I double-check the number of reserves and their special status. If there are absent players, I ask if there is any chance of late arrival. If there is, I warn the manager that once the player enters the dugout, she is accountable against the participation rules. I also make sure that the managers agree with the pitching limitations.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by LDUB
Rich,

I have a few questions.

Luke, I'm not Rich, but I think these are the questions you were frustrated with me not answering. Let me do so.

Say the reserves are not listed on the lineup card. Just 9 names listed.

1. Is the umpire supposed to refuse to accept such a lineup card?

By the plate meeting, I've already had a chance to discuss this with the TD. We have also, I suppose, gone over policing the stands for "ringers," etc.

2. Is the umpire supposed to go to the dugout and count the number of players on the team?

The TD would compare the roster sheet with her official team roster.

3. Is he supposed to write in the names of the reserves himself?

No.

4. If the lineup card does not have the reserves on it, how is the umpire supposed to keep track of minimum play?

If the manager announces a substitution with a player not on the sheet, I'll be calling the TD over. I have no idea what she would do.

5. What if the manager tells the bad players to come to the game, not in uniform and sit in the stands? He only wants the 9 best players in uniform. Then only the best players get to play. Then if one of the players gets hurt, the manager signals to one of the kids in the stands to change into his uniform. The manager then says "Hey, Johnny just showed up. Good timing, go play left field."

At the plate meeting, I've asked the managers to alert me if any absent player shows up. If this scenario played out, I'd drop it in the TD's lap.

I appreciate your cynicism, and I'll probably adopt some of your stance in the future. (I've actually never been the UiC when an absent player has shown up late. It's probably pretty rare.) Truly, the majority of the application of this watchfulness is to prevent an honest accident. (I'm pretty sure that such accidents are honest, since a violation is very visible, very protestable, and very serious.)

-LL

[LDUB]

Originally posted by LilLeaguer
Perhaps it would be best to call it a roster sheet. Since this is a district tournament, each team has a pre-approved roster. Typically, each player is listed on the roster, with a notation if she cannot play (do to injury or absence, e.g.). Additionally, the players that are ineligible to pitch (due to pitching in prior days) are marked as well. The starting players are listed first, and the reserves at the bottom of the sheet. The original positions are also noted, but I only care about the batting order and the pitcher. The TD approves the roster sheets before the game begins and delivers them to the UiC before game time. I can ask her any questions I have at that time.

What if this is not a torunament? Then you would have a normal lineup card.

Now that I understand how the system works, I see that it is not your job even more.

The TD has the lineup before you do. The TD gives you the lineup, not the maanager. I assume the TD give a copy of the lineup to the scorer too.

So now the scorer has all the info needed to keep track of minimum play and pitching limits. Why do you need to be involved? Is the scorer so bad at doing his job that you need to help him with it?

Minimum play has nothing to do with the game at all. Therefore the umpire has no reason to keep track of it.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by LDUB

What if this is not a torunament? Then you would have a normal lineup card.

Now that I understand how the system works, I see that it is not your job even more.

I respect your opinion, but I respect the opinion of my TD even more. Since the duty is neither onerous nor distasteful, I choose to do it. I am not exactly motivated by this, but shirking the duty would signal to the District Administrator and the Umpire Coordinator that I was not ready for "bigger" assignments.

The TD has the lineup before you do. The TD gives you the lineup, not the maanager. I assume the TD give a copy of the lineup to the scorer too.

So now the scorer has all the info needed to keep track of minimum play and pitching limits. Why do you need to be involved? Is the scorer so bad at doing his job that you need to help him with it?

Minimum play has nothing to do with the game at all. Therefore the umpire has no reason to keep track of it.

Umpires deal with non-game issues all the time. See the recent thread on how non-participants should conduct themselves during pre-game warmups. Heck, even keeping a lineup card has nothing to do with balls/strikes/outs; why not let the scorekeeper worry about the official batter in BOO appeals?

Perhaps we can agree on this. When I'm working your tournament, I'll do this your way.

-LL

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by LDUB

What if this is not a torunament? Then you would have a normal lineup card.

Now that I understand how the system works, I see that it is not your job even more.

The TD has the lineup before you do. The TD gives you the lineup, not the maanager. I assume the TD give a copy of the lineup to the scorer too.

So now the scorer has all the info needed to keep track of minimum play and pitching limits. Why do you need to be involved? Is the scorer so bad at doing his job that you need to help him with it?

Minimum play has nothing to do with the game at all. Therefore the umpire has no reason to keep track of it.

During regular season Little League, the umpire is clearly and unequivocally NOT responsible for tracking MPR. MPR is a regulation, not a playing rule, and it is not protestable. MPR violations are a matter for the board of directors to handle.

During Little League tournament play, things change. Tournament rules provide for player re-entry, but ONLY after the player they are replacing has played 3 consecutive defensive outs and batted at least once, which happens to be exactly the mandatory play requirement; therefore, the rule is described as "players can re-enter when their sub has met MPR."

Since the legality of all substitutions is a function of the umpire's lineup responsibilities, you can say with some accuracy the umpire must "be involved in" policing MPR in Little League tournament play. In my experience, this responsibility is typically discharged with considerable assistance from the official scorer.

[Carbide Keyman]

Having done LL tournaments for the past five years, I have never received a line-up card nor asked about wether everyone has played. That is the coaches job and if they fail at it, there are rules in the LL tournament rules to handle such occurences.

The most I might do (in deference to "preventative" umpiring) is to very discreetly ask each coach around the fourth inning if he has all his subs in. No more.

JMO



Doug

[LDUB]

Originally posted by LilLeaguer
Umpires deal with non-game issues all the time. See the recent thread on how non-participants should conduct themselves during pre-game warmups. Heck, even keeping a lineup card has nothing to do with balls/strikes/outs; why not let the scorekeeper worry about the official batter in BOO appeals?

Perhaps we can agree on this. When I'm working your tournament, I'll do this your way.

-LL

Both of those are game issues.

The first one has to do with preventing pitchers from thowing at batters.

On the second one:

1. Unless you are some weird area where they pay people to score the game, then there really isn't an official scorer. There is just a reserve in the dugout keeping score for his team.

2. If you are working "big time" baseball, where the scorer sits in the press box, it is a hassle to confer with him about something. Subs. don't happen that often, and it is easy for the umpire to write it down quickly.


Also I never said to not do what the TD told you to do. The TD is stupid for thinking that you care about if every kid gets to play so much. It has nothing to do with the game. If the TD asked you to stick around after the game to help drag the infield would you do it? I would hope that you would get in his face and tell him that you don't care about crap like that and that it is not your job. Maybe you should have a talk with the TD and tell him you are sick of doing the coach's job. What is next? You have to keep a pitch count, and let the manager know when the pitcher hits X number of pitches?