Dilemma

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I would not expect you to reverse his call. It's his call. But if he asked you what you saw (regardless of his reasons for doing so), you should tell him. Then he makes the call about whether to reverse it. And he takes the heat, and handles the ejections as well.

Let me change your situation a bit.

You are working with the best umpire you've ever worked with. Always in position. Always hustles, and knows all the rules. This time, HE's your base umpire on the very same play. He makes the call, coach asks him to look for help, and for some reason, he DOES ask for what you saw.

Do you tell him, or do you give him the same "Talk to the hand" that you gave our crappy ump from the original story?

I suspect you would tell him what you saw, and let him decide how to handle.

If so, then it seems to me you are letting your contempt for this sub-par umpire affect the game in a negative manner. Don't get me wrong --- this crappy umpire needs to undergo some serious retraining, and your assignor needs to be made aware of his issues.

But don't let his crappiness penalize the kids in a sitch where you can make it right.

Hi MC,

As BU I've never ever went to PU for help on plays at second or third I've had Coaches ask me but, my answer to them is Coach this is my play all the way. I also would not want to "pass the buck". As PU I've never ever had my partner come to me for help on plays at second or third. Quite frankly if I had a partner (assuming I'm PU) that did this I'm not certain what I would do. In terms of penalzing the kids IMHO I don't feel that this is the case. Good calls and bad calls are part of the game the same as good plays, clutch hits, mental mistakes and butchered plays.

[mcrowder]

Gordon, I agree with you regarding YOUR actions (and mine) as BU. I admit it's conceivable that there might eventually be an instance where I ask for help. It would likely have to be more drastic than the actual sitch posted here (I got hit by a ball, dirt in the eye, broke my leg pivoting, I don't know... something along those lines).

But if this did happen to me as PU, my attitude toward the competence or effort-level of my BU should not come into play. If he asks me what I saw, I tell him. Better or worse, we are partners, if only for this game. Leaving him out to dry, even if it's his fault he's blowing in the wind, is completely unprofessional.

Edited to add: If I was straightlined through my own poor mechanics or bad judgement, I'd likely simply take the heat on my own without hauling partner into it (unless partner seemed to be trying to get my attention).

[Edited by mcrowder on Apr 20th, 2005 at 11:20 AM]

[scyguy]

MC,
I'm not a bad guy that wanted to "hurt" my partner. Sure I made comments about him as a way to set the table. But I totally understand that the two of us are out there together. However, in this situation he chose to call runner safe. If he would of overruled the decision after talking with me then it does not take an Einstein to figure out how the conversation went. The opposing coach would have every right to express his opinion to me. This guy should of known better than to even ask for my help. Now he has put me in a position of trying to bail him out. Like I told him in our discussion, "if you called him safe, then you must of had a reason to do it". Safe was his call, safe is the runner.

[mcrowder]

I ask again...

If this partner was the best guy you'd ever worked with, but for some reason on this play, he asked for your help...

What do you do?

[Tim C]

. . . did this site bgecome eTeamSleeze?

[scyguy]

MC,
I have to believe that if it was the best guy I had ever worked with, he would of never asked. I only have one partner in this area that has been to clinics with me, or clinics period. We were taught proper positioning and when we could seek help on appealable situations.

Even if this guy was my best buddy, I still would of said the same thing.

[mcrowder]

If that's true, then I take back my assertion that you were penalizing the players for the lackadaisical effort of your "partner".

I said elsewhere that I'd only ask for help in extreme situations (dirt in my eye, broke my leg pivoting, etc). Someone IM'd me, though a plausible scenario where I'd rule safe, but then ask for help if asked, and I agree.

I'm in PERFECT position, but right at the exact moment I'm about to see the play, either a player I didn't see gets right in my line of sight, or runs into me. If I didn't see the out, I'm likely to call safe (especially if the development of the play made me "Feel" like it was going to be safe). It's possible that, due to development of the play, I call out. In either case, I didn't actually see the last split second of the play. If coach asks me to check with partner, and I KNOW that I didn't see everything, I can see myself asking partner for help.

Now ... I'm your partner, this happens, and I ask for help - even telling you why I missed the end of the play.

Do you help?

[scyguy]

Sorry, but no I don't help. If I did then both coaches would want every single call appealed until the game is over. You called him safe---then he is safe.

[akalsey]

I said:

The guy has a bad angle, the coach asks him to ask you for some help, and although you had more information, you refused to provide it? Instead, how about tell him "Yes, I had a better angle on that play and I had him out." Then let him make up his mind what to do with that information.

You replied (ad hominem attacks removed to keep the discussion civil):

akalsey, ... I would never leave my partner out to dry, but on the other hand I will do my job and expect him to do his. If I would have overruled his decision a knowledgeable coach would of had every right to eat my lunch.

Where in my statement did I say (or even suggest) that you overrule your partner? He asks what information you have. You give it to him (and only to him, without anyone else in earshot). He then decides what to do with that information. He might decide you're a moron that wouldn't know safe or out if it bit him. Then he'd stick with his original call. He might decide you're the smartest, most helpful umpire on the planet and reverse his own call. He might even decide that you're right about the call, but he doesn't want to deal with the fallout of reversing his call and so he sticks with the blown call.

But if my partner asks me for information, I give it to him. Then off the field I critique his mechanics, call my assignor, whatever is appropriate. Otherwise, you've left him out to dry, something you say you'd never do.

Later you said:

Of course my partner can appeal to me, if the situation dictates. If you think this was an appropreate time to appeal to your partner, then you don't have a clue about me.

I cannot reverse his call. This is not my place. He should NEVER had asked to begin with

So you're the one that decides if your partner has all the information he needs on a play? I agree that he shouldn't have needed help on this play: the fact is that he DID go to you for help. And then you hung him out to dry. Guess who's going to look like they were in the wrong now? I don't care what you say to your assignor about this guy's mechanics. If he points out that you ignored him when he appealed to you, you've got a good chance of being assigned to nothing but t-ball.

Even when you're right, if you take the low road, you get mud on you.

I don't see Tim and Rich agreeing with you. Rich points out that he wouldn't have even been looking at the play, so he'd have had nothing to say. Tim's reponse is a little less clear. He "get's short" with umpires who appeal on simple calls, but he doesn't say that he tells them to stick it, that even though he saw the play he won't help, and that he makes this fact known to the dugouts as you apparently did (since the coach immediately starts complaining about your decision).

Your reasoning that if you let your partner appeal to you then the coach is going to appeal on every play doesn't hold water. If your partner asks, you answer. If it becomes a problem with the coach coming out on every play, you can always remind your partner that he's allowed to tell the coaches "no" and you can start making sure that you never see any of the appealed plays. There's better ways to deal with this than cutting your partner off at the knees.

You asked us for help and advice and when you didn't get the advice you were looking for you launched into name calling. Perhaps next time you ask for help instead of answering, we'll tell you that you should already know that and since you shouldn't need help, we refuse to provide it.

[Tim C]

Here's what I would say:

Just because I have a different angle than my partner does not mean what I saw was interpreted correctly by my mind.

I have a partner that I expect to get "their" calls. If we are talking rules or an over the fence homerun "is it fair/foul" question that is one thing.

But the other side is:

I do not know ANY upper level umpire that would even offer an opinion on a simple steal of third if the PU "appeared" to miss the call.

If I was the BU I would live with my call, if I was a a PU I would NOT expect even a question to be asked.

I still beleive that sometimes you still "just have to umpire!"

[mcrowder]

Everything you say in your post is right, Tim, and I agree.

But in this particular sitch, the obviously subpar umpire DID ask for help. I have no problem with any complaints regarding this umpire, and agree he needs to be reported to his assignor. But whether he was right or wrong, bad or good, clumsy or inadequate, he DID ask for help.

And scyguy left him out to dry on principle. (And states that he would leave his best friend, the best umpire on the planet, or me out to dry in this sitch too.)

That's where I have the problem.

So, Tim - do you leave partner out to dry, or do you tell him what you see, and then either fix him or tell the assignor he needs fixing later?

[scyguy]

I apologized for the name calling and I will apologize to you individually. You obviously have a clue. I understand your point. I just don't want to tell the BU that I saw an out and he then "change his mind". I have no legs to stand on since it was never my call. I saw it, you would of saw it too because we have DBT responsibilities after our runner touched home. If Rich said he shouldn't of seen it, well that is his choice. I feel that picking up the ball after my touch was the right thing to do. I don't know what Rich would of been looking at. Rich has alot of experience, so I am sure he knows what he is doing.

Your acquisition of treating him like a competing umpire is unfounded. My resistance to "making the call" had nothing to do with competiton.

I want to work with the best umpires that know what they are doing. That train hard at it. That devote weekends away from their families to get better. It was not my job to bail him out. Maybe he saw something I don't. It is his call, live or die by it. Remember, if it was an appealable situation I would of come running to his aid. Learn what you are doing or don't accept the assignments.

[scyguy]

Originally posted by scyguy
I apologized for the name calling and I will apologize to you individually. You obviously have a clue. I understand your point. I just don't want to tell the BU that I saw an out and he then "change his mind". I have no legs to stand on since it was never my call. I saw it, you would of saw it too because we have DBT responsibilities after our runner touched home. If Rich said he shouldn't of seen it, well that is his choice. I feel that picking up the ball after my touch was the right thing to do. I don't know what Rich would of been looking at. Rich has alot of experience, so I am sure he knows what he is doing.

Your acquisition of treating him like a competing umpire is unfounded. My resistance to "making the call" had nothing to do with competiton.

I want to work with the best umpires that know what they are doing. That train hard at it. That devote weekends away from their families to get better. It was not my job to bail him out. Maybe he saw something I don't. It is his call, live or die by it. Remember, if it was an appealable situation I would of come running to his aid. Umpires need to learn what they are doing or don't accept the assignments.

Just remember guys before you burn me at the stake (again), I told him that "it is your call". "If you called him safe, then he is safe". He said okay, turned and went back to his position and told the coach he called him safe.

[Rich]

Originally posted by scyguy
I apologized for the name calling and I will apologize to you individually. You obviously have a clue. I understand your point. I just don't want to tell the BU that I saw an out and he then "change his mind". I have no legs to stand on since it was never my call. I saw it, you would of saw it too because we have DBT responsibilities after our runner touched home. If Rich said he shouldn't of seen it, well that is his choice. I feel that picking up the ball after my touch was the right thing to do. I don't know what Rich would of been looking at. Rich has alot of experience, so I am sure he knows what he is doing.

Your acquisition of treating him like a competing umpire is unfounded. My resistance to "making the call" had nothing to do with competiton.

I want to work with the best umpires that know what they are doing. That train hard at it. That devote weekends away from their families to get better. It was not my job to bail him out. Maybe he saw something I don't. It is his call, live or die by it. Remember, if it was an appealable situation I would of come running to his aid. Learn what you are doing or don't accept the assignments.

I may have been looking in that direction, but I wouldn't be looking to see whether or not I thought the runner was out.

[cowbyfan1]

Only way I consider offering my opinion on this is if the call was a blatent screw up I'm talking kid slides in safe and then gets tagged on the head or shoulders... If it wasn't, I offer nothing different.