NFHS legal windup

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I am enjoying the discussion of this issue and based on the discussion it seems clear that the rule is not only poorly written, but it's a classic example of rulebook minutia that makes a game more difficult to officiate. I think the reasons why this rule exist have been well explained, but really the only situation in practice where a violation of this rule can be considered deceptive is the hands over head move with a runner on third. The point of the balk rule is to prevent deception. I don't understand why, though, other clear attempts to deceive, such as the "3-1" move are legal and the minor movement of 2 hands to a stop in front of the body is considered deceptive enough to call a balk. Lefties practice moves to deceive runners at first. I agree that they are part of the game, but I don't see the sense from a rules perspective in allowing blatant attempts to deceive and to punish largely unnoticed movements by the pitcher. Rather than wording the rule in general language, the rule should be clear. If the rules committee wants to stop a pitcher from doing something specifically deceptive, they should ban that specific action, not speak in generalities.

Your'e missing the FED's point, which is: Why should F1 be able to deceive R3 about when he intends to wind up?

Since movement of both hands is defined as the start of a pitch, then movement followed by a stop is more than deceptive.

Wouldn't you agree?

The point: We write rules all the time to deal with one specific situation. Interference with a double play possible, malicious contact, running lane, running the bases in reverse order, etc.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
If the rules committee wants to stop a pitcher from doing something specifically deceptive, they should ban that specific action, not speak in generalities.

FED did this -- they banned the specific action of moving both hands, then stopping. Consider FED without this rule: Some coach is going to teach his kids to "abruptly" bring the hands together, in hopes of "faking" some runner into believing that was the start of a pitch. FED doesn't believe umpires can discern the difference, or doesn't want the umpires to have to discern the differenc. It's consistent with other FED rulings -- a specific action is either legal (see the "abrupt shoulder turn") or illegal without regard to "intent."

Now, since FED has the rule, we don't see the move. And, since the move wouldn't work in NCAA or pro (it would either be balked, or the runners woudn't be fooled), it's easy to tell teh difference between bringing the hans togeher and starting the pitch. So, we say that we don't need the rule. But, if we didn't have it, we'd need it.

[Tim C]

SMEngmann is starting to sound more and more like "rulesgeek" in every post.

[Rich]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

FED did this -- they banned the specific action of moving both hands, then stopping. Consider FED without this rule: Some coach is going to teach his kids to "abruptly" bring the hands together, in hopes of "faking" some runner into believing that was the start of a pitch. FED doesn't believe umpires can discern the difference, or doesn't want the umpires to have to discern the differenc. It's consistent with other FED rulings -- a specific action is either legal (see the "abrupt shoulder turn") or illegal without regard to "intent."

Now, since FED has the rule, we don't see the move. And, since the move wouldn't work in NCAA or pro (it would either be balked, or the runners woudn't be fooled), it's easy to tell teh difference between bringing the hans togeher and starting the pitch. So, we say that we don't need the rule. But, if we didn't have it, we'd need it.

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods.

Why?

[DG]

[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods. [/B][/QUOTE]Why? [/B][/QUOTE]Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by DG

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods. [/B][/QUOTE]Why? [/B][/QUOTE]Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book.

[DG]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I don't know about that -- everyone looks for the start of the pitch as being the step back with the free foot. Matter of fact (Tee, don't read this), I know that bringing both arms up together and pausing doesn't get balked in this neck of the woods.

Why? [/B][/QUOTE]Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by DG

Why?

Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]Childress writes: I've written often about the technical balk of stepping off with the wrong foot. (Of course, you know that is not listed as a balk in the OBR. Right? You knew that?) At any rate, I won't comment further on that.

Another poster said that moving both hands and then pausing is a balk that isn't called in "my neck of the woods." I asked: "Why?" And you replied.

So I assumed you were from the same neck of the woods. I was just having a little fun. I'm sorry it didn't come across that way.

[DG]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it.

If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]Childress writes: I've written often about the technical balk of stepping off with the wrong foot. (Of course, you know that is not listed as a balk in the OBR. Right? You knew that?) At any rate, I won't comment further on that.

Another poster said that moving both hands and then pausing is a balk that isn't called in "my neck of the woods." I asked: "Why?" And you replied.

So I assumed you were from the same neck of the woods. I was just having a little fun. I'm sorry it didn't come across that way. [/B][/QUOTE] I don't know if I am from the same neck of the woods as the poster you mention. I thought you were referencing the color of my neck, which is certainly, and proudly, RED.

David Wells was called for a balk recently when he stepped off with the wrong foot in a game vs. NY. But I think he had started his motion and stepped off.

Last week I saw a left handed relief pitcher, in the top of the 5th inning of a FED game start with his right foot in front of the rubber. His first step was also in front of the rubber. The score was 14-2, home team leading, bases loaded, one out. Relief pitcher was the home team reliever. Since bases were loaded none of the runners were fooled, by the "balk", no one complained, and the game ended on a strikeout and a fly ball. I put this in the category of a "technical balk".

Now I am confused about what constitutes a technical balk and what does not. Regional differences may vary, but in these parts bringing the hands together and stopping is not called a balk. No runners are fooled and no coaches expect a balk to be called. If a coach wants to protest the non-call he will win, if I am UIC, because I know the rule. But I have never seen a coach complain. If I call it, I will have to explain it, every time.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by DG
Now I am confused about what constitutes a technical balk and what does not. Regional differences may vary, but in these parts bringing the hands together and stopping is not called a balk. No runners are fooled and no coaches expect a balk to be called. If a coach wants to protest the non-call he will win, if I am UIC, because I know the rule. But I have never seen a coach complain. If I call it, I will have to explain it, every time.

DG: Stepping off with the wrong foot IS a balk by official interpretation. (PBUC and MLBUM both agree.) It's a black letter balk in FED and NCAA. I never call that one, and nobody complains because they know what the pitcher is doing. They also think I know all the rules, so....

Now, when that pitcher steps off with the wrong foot and raises his arms simultaneously: "That's a balk." For sure.

Let me conclude my part in this thread: If the umpires in your association don't call the hand movement a balk, that's different from your association telling you NOT to call it a balk. If they do that, they're wrong and unethical.

I would call it, and I would explain it carefully to both coaches in every game. There would be a groundswell of opinion in favor of the book because a pitcher gains a great advantage over a well-coached runner when he can move both hands without pitching.

After I talked to a few coaches, the players would ALL become well-coached.

Look, you KNOW it's a balk. The FED book is very clear and very certain. And it's been a balk since 1993! This is the thirteenth season since the rule was adopted: How can that information not have surfaced in your neck of the woods? (grin)

It's called in Texas, Illinois, and Washington, we know, because posters from those areas have said so.

It ought to be called in your area.

BTW: Do they use the DH where you work? (another grin) I know some FED umpires who hate that rule, and ....

[David B]

Originally posted by DG

Why?

Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it. [/B][/QUOTE]If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like in your neck of the woods you have coaches then who aren't smart enought to take advantage of umpires not calling the rules.

If I were the coach and saw that, then I would pick every runner off of third.

Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.

If a runner waits for the step back to move then he's way behind the play. We were (and correctly I should say) taught many years ago to go on movement.

Thanks
David

[DG]

Originally posted by David B

Because it would be considered a "highly technical balk", no runners move when the hands move together, and no one complains that it is not called. Everybody in my Fed association would balk stepping off from the windup with the wrong foot, but about half the association would not know this was a balk and the other half does not call it.

If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book. [/B][/QUOTE]The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like in your neck of the woods you have coaches then who aren't smart enought to take advantage of umpires not calling the rules.

If I were the coach and saw that, then I would pick every runner off of third.

Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.

If a runner waits for the step back to move then he's way behind the play. We were (and correctly I should say) taught many years ago to go on movement.

Thanks
David [/B][/QUOTE]How you going to pick a runner off third on this? You can't make a pick from the windup in FED.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by DG

If I were a coach in "your neck of the woods," you would call it - or lose every protest when you didn't.

It's not a technical balk. It's a real balk because there are consequences when the runners are coached well. Stepping off slowly with the wrong foot (with hands remaining motionless) is technical. Everybody knows what the pitcher is doing - and why.

Moving both hands is, BY RULE, the start of a pitch. I would send my runner, and the guys in "your neck of the woods" wouldn't balk him, and I would laugh all the way to the bank.

You guys had better get you heads (and necks) into the rule book.

The runners are not coached on this subject, and nobody complains and there are no protests when not called. If someone would complain it would get called. However, everybody knows that stepping off with the wrong foot is a balk and everybody will complain. And players will be coached to move when the non pivot foot moves back. So how do we decide what is a real balk vs. a technical balk? So far it sounds like a technical balk is one where everybody knows what he is doing and nobody is concerned. So why does this not apply to this situation?

And what does my neck have to do with this subject? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like in your neck of the woods you have coaches then who aren't smart enought to take advantage of umpires not calling the rules.

If I were the coach and saw that, then I would pick every runner off of third.

Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.

If a runner waits for the step back to move then he's way behind the play. We were (and correctly I should say) taught many years ago to go on movement.

Thanks
David [/B][/QUOTE]How you going to pick a runner off third on this? You can't make a pick from the windup in FED. [/B][/QUOTE]You missed the answer that David had: Simply, start the movement, pause and then step off and pick the runner.

Remember, the well-coached runner is stealing home on first movement. Quick first movement, stop, step off....

Actually, the official scorer would label the out (as it would surely be) as "caught stealing" because the throw would go to the catcher, not the third baseman.

A picky little matter, but it is mine own.

According to my wife - and she knows these things - that's not the only picky little matter around my house.

Lah, me.

[DG]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

DG: Stepping off with the wrong foot IS a balk by official interpretation. (PBUC and MLBUM both agree.) It's a black letter balk in FED and NCAA. I never call that one, and nobody complains because they know what the pitcher is doing. They also think I know all the rules, so....

Now, when that pitcher steps off with the wrong foot and raises his arms simultaneously: "That's a balk." For sure.

Let me conclude my part in this thread: If the umpires in your association don't call the hand movement a balk, that's different from your association telling you NOT to call it a balk. If they do that, they're wrong and unethical.

I would call it, and I would explain it carefully to both coaches in every game. There would be a groundswell of opinion in favor of the book because a pitcher gains a great advantage over a well-coached runner when he can move both hands without pitching.

After I talked to a few coaches, the players would ALL become well-coached.

Look, you KNOW it's a balk. The FED book is very clear and very certain. And it's been a balk since 1993! This is the thirteenth season since the rule was adopted: How can that information not have surfaced in your neck of the woods? (grin)

It's called in Texas, Illinois, and Washington, we know, because posters from those areas have said so.

It ought to be called in your area.

BTW: Do they use the DH where you work? (another grin) I know some FED umpires who hate that rule, and ....

My association does not tell me not to call this, never said so. I mentioned a situation that would always be called a balk (wrong foot) and one that would rarely be called a balk (hand movement).

I know a balk when I see it, by black letter rule, but I am trying to rationalize the "technical ones" not to call. I would call stepping off with the wrong foot, everyone expects it. I have not, to date, called bringing hands together and stopping, in FED, because no one expects it.