NFHS legal windup

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Tim C
Please you don't have "to see it" . . . the posts and the rules references that make it a balk are quite clear.

What am I missing here . . . I need something to make me see your side.

Tim
Simple physics. Try it yourself - you have to pause in order to start your pitching motion.

The reason I am challenging is that my son (HS pitcher & Board Umpire) does exactly this every time and never gets called. Now I am not arguing the rule (hard to when there is nothing written in the FED rule book about the pause we are talking about) rather I am arguing the application of the rule. Bear with me here.

*****************************
FED 6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are:
(a) together in front of the body;
(b) both hands are at his side;
(c) either hand is in front of the body and the other is at his side.
The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has places his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any fielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.
*****************************
Now there is the FED wind-up rule. Please tell me how bringing your hands together, is the start of the delivery! I contend that once the hands are together, you have no choice but to deliver or step off. The delivery movement is the next movement after the hands are together. Again, I refer you to simple physics; you have to come to a pause once the hands are together.

I'll go one step further on this. If you try to bring your hands together and go right into your pitching motion (remember, no pause of any kind) you will balk! PLEASE - try it before you respond (not just Tim I mean everyone)!

Now we are going to have fun! :

[SMEngmann]

Thank you everyone for providing the rule references, I'm glad I now know the exact rule so I can teach my players accordingly, and I will do so. The part that I don't get is why this rule exists in the first place? As an official, I understand that the umpire had to call it according to the rules, but this rule does not make any sense. The intent of illegal pitch/balk rules is to prevent deception and quick pitching. This rule, frankly, does not do either and it is evident in the differences in rule between Fed, NCAA and MLB. Can anyone explain the purpose of this rule or defend why it shouldn't be changed?

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Tim
Simple physics. Try it yourself - you have to pause in order to start your pitching motion.

The reason I am challenging is that my son (HS pitcher & Board Umpire) does exactly this every time and never gets called. Now I am not arguing the rule (hard to when there is nothing written in the FED rule book about the pause we are talking about) rather I am arguing the application of the rule. Bear with me here.

*****************************
FED 6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are:
(a) together in front of the body;
(b) both hands are at his side;
(c) either hand is in front of the body and the other is at his side.
The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has places his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any fielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.
*****************************
Now there is the FED wind-up rule. Please tell me how bringing your hands together, is the start of the delivery! I contend that once the hands are together, you have no choice but to deliver or step off. The delivery movement is the next movement after the hands are together. Again, I refer you to simple physics; you have to come to a pause once the hands are together.

I'll go one step further on this. If you try to bring your hands together and go right into your pitching motion (remember, no pause of any kind) you will balk! PLEASE - try it before you respond (not just Tim I mean everyone)!

Now we are going to have fun! :

A few years ago there was a change to what is now the FED windup rule(s).
At that time, the Rules slides [which we are all required to view] made quite a point of what was and was not now legal.
Short answer:
IF you take the rubber w/ hands @ side, AND IF you move both hands AT THE SAME TIME, bringing them together in front of the body; THEN you must continue to pitch in an uninterrupted motion.

IF [on the other hand] you take the rubber w/ hands @ side, AND IF you then move your hands, ONE AFTER THE OTHER, bringing them together in front of the body, THEN and in that case, you are NOT required to continue, and may in fact pause before pitching.

WHY is this so? I dunno, except that time of pitch is defined for windup as a simultaneous movement of any two limbs, when engaged with the rubber.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Tim
Simple physics. Try it yourself - you have to pause in order to start your pitching motion.

The reason I am challenging is that my son (HS pitcher & Board Umpire) does exactly this every time and never gets called. Now I am not arguing the rule (hard to when there is nothing written in the FED rule book about the pause we are talking about) rather I am arguing the application of the rule. Bear with me here.

*****************************
FED 6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are:
(a) together in front of the body;
(b) both hands are at his side;
(c) either hand is in front of the body and the other is at his side.
The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has places his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any fielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.
*****************************
Now there is the FED wind-up rule. Please tell me how bringing your hands together, is the start of the delivery! I contend that once the hands are together, you have no choice but to deliver or step off. The delivery movement is the next movement after the hands are together. Again, I refer you to simple physics; you have to come to a pause once the hands are together.

I'll go one step further on this. If you try to bring your hands together and go right into your pitching motion (remember, no pause of any kind) you will balk! PLEASE - try it before you respond (not just Tim I mean everyone)!

Now we are going to have fun! :

I agree that the rule book is NOT straight forward on this however, if you look at the Case Book, pg43, "The Windup". 6.1.2 Situations c, e, G, h & I all deal with this. i originally only read c and got mixed up myself.

[DG]

Regional differences vary. You would be considered an OOO to call it in these parts. I have never seen it called.

[billyhouston]

Correct me if I am wrong but you can only balk when there are runners on base. So if the pitcher does it when the bags are clear it is an illegal pitch. We don't pick boggers in our chapter when the pitch make this move. We normaly give a little heads up to the coach and let it go. If he does it while there are runners on we call the balk.

Thats not to say that it shouldn't be called. There could be a case made that if you don't call the illegal pitch when you first see it and award a ball to the batter, that you could have an adverse effect on the game by calling it when there is more at stake. HUMMMMMMMMM! I think I might change my thinking on this one. Call it if you see it, as soon as you see it, so that the pitch knows before there are runners on! I love this forum.

[billyhouston]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Tim
Simple physics. Try it yourself - you have to pause in order to start your pitching motion.

The reason I am challenging is that my son (HS pitcher & Board Umpire) does exactly this every time and never gets called. Now I am not arguing the rule (hard to when there is nothing written in the FED rule book about the pause we are talking about) rather I am arguing the application of the rule. Bear with me here.

*****************************
FED 6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are:
(a) together in front of the body;
(b) both hands are at his side;
(c) either hand is in front of the body and the other is at his side.
The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has places his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any fielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.
*****************************
Now there is the FED wind-up rule. Please tell me how bringing your hands together, is the start of the delivery! I contend that once the hands are together, you have no choice but to deliver or step off. The delivery movement is the next movement after the hands are together. Again, I refer you to simple physics; you have to come to a pause once the hands are together.

I'll go one step further on this. If you try to bring your hands together and go right into your pitching motion (remember, no pause of any kind) you will balk! PLEASE - try it before you respond (not just Tim I mean everyone)!

Now we are going to have fun! :

The rule of thumb here is that two body parts are moveing at the same time (arms). This is the time of the pitch. I see this wind up quite often and they never balk. They bring both hands togther and get after it.

[Tim C]

In FEDlandia you can "balk" (Brad Rumble's term, not mine) when:

1) If in the wind-up position and the pitcher does the "start-stop" (you see it all the time when a pitcher stops in mid-windup and steps off and starts over) it is determined to be a "balk" (BR term) and a ball is added to the batter's count and,

2) If a pitcher is pitching from the set position and does not make a "stop" (just like with runners on base) it is to be called a "balk" (BR term) and a ball added to the batter's count.

These may not be written in the NFHS rule book, HOWEVER, they were published in the Federation Spring Newsletter during the last 10 years.

The editor of this website may have the specific dates of the newsletters.

In FED it appears that balks do occur with no runners on base.

In closing guys, what other rules do you ignore? Please read this years POEs and get back to me. I am interested to see how you justify not calling the rules that your client publishes.

Lah Me.

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 7th, 2005 at 09:42 AM]

[David B]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Tim
Simple physics. Try it yourself - you have to pause in order to start your pitching motion.

The reason I am challenging is that my son (HS pitcher & Board Umpire) does exactly this every time and never gets called. Now I am not arguing the rule (hard to when there is nothing written in the FED rule book about the pause we are talking about) rather I am arguing the application of the rule. Bear with me here.

*****************************
FED 6-1-2 For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are:
(a) together in front of the body;
(b) both hands are at his side;
(c) either hand is in front of the body and the other is at his side.
The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has places his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any fielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.
*****************************
Now there is the FED wind-up rule. Please tell me how bringing your hands together, is the start of the delivery! I contend that once the hands are together, you have no choice but to deliver or step off. The delivery movement is the next movement after the hands are together. Again, I refer you to simple physics; you have to come to a pause once the hands are together.

I'll go one step further on this. If you try to bring your hands together and go right into your pitching motion (remember, no pause of any kind) you will balk! PLEASE - try it before you respond (not just Tim I mean everyone)!

Now we are going to have fun! :

Come on guys, use your history to remember.

Years ago in FED, once the pitcher in the wind-up started any movement of the hands he had to continue to the plate and pitch. He could NOT step off. I could look it up in my books but I don't have time today.

Then FED added the rule several years ago, I would guess in the late 90's giving the pitcher several options.

However, there is not an option to move both hands at the same time and then stop. That part of the rule is still as it was in the 80's.

The only options the F1 has now that is different, is that he can now start with glove in front, then put hands together and at that point he can still step off.

If he has both hands together any movement commits him to pitch.

With both hands down, he can move ONE hand at a time and still step off.

In all situations, if F1 moves both hands at the same time he is committed to pitch.

This is an important rule because it determines when the BR can advance. He must know when the pitcher is committed to the plate.

If as an umpire we allow him to bring BOTH hands up and pause, and then he can step off at that time we have allowed him to gain a big advantage.

Thanks
David

[Tim C]

David noted:

"That part of the rule is still as it was in the 80's."

Actually David it has been that way since AT LEAST 1974.

[David B]

Originally posted by Tim C
David noted:

"That part of the rule is still as it was in the 80's."

Actually David it has been that way since AT LEAST 1974.

I kind of figured that. I actually started FED in 1978 but I was young then and didn't keep my rule books.

But I did remember my early training. If the F1 starts any movement, he has to pitch from the windup etc.,

Thanks
David

[gobama84]

Originally posted by Tim C
In closing guys, what other rules do you ignore? Please read this years POEs and get back to me. I am interested to see how you justify not calling the rules that your client publishes.

Lah Me.

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 7th, 2005 at 09:42 AM] [/B]

Thanks for bringing that back up Tee. Nobody has answered you yet, have they?
I said this earlier "In Alabama it is called a balk. It's in the rule book isn't it? POE this year in FED is Umpires shall call what is in the rule book. Don't pick and choose."

[Tim C]

Just a further extrapolation of "not calling rules" . . .

I was surfing umpire websites one day when I found this one:

http://www.hartfordumpires.com

Always being interested in Association websites I went into visit the site.

While working my way through the site I found an area called:

"Interpreter's Corner":

In that space were comments on the 2005 NFHS rules changes.

The following was included:

"The 2005 Casebook page 42 Situation J a) allows the pitcher to make an "abrupt" and quick shoulder turn while on the rubber with hands separated. The case book ruling 6-1-1-SITUATION J is "partially" incorrect The RULING should read illegal in (a)and legal in (b). NFHS is aware of the incorrect ruling and will be changing it in next year's case book. This has been confirmed with Ray Faustich - State Interpreter. In the unlikely even that a "studious" coach refers to the ruling in the case book, the umpire should simply tell him that there was a mistake during printing of the case book."

Now this is just a false statement.

It sounded to me much like a local group "not liking" the new rules and were leading their members down a road.

I contacted Elliot Hopkins at the National Federations of High Schools and asked him if, indeed, the test (question #88), the Case Book example and the Interpretation posted on the FED website were all in error.

Elliot's answer was:

" . . . the rule is very clear in all of our publications as you made note in your e-mail. I know Ray very well and am not sure why he would say that the rule is incorrect when clearly it is not. If the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee and the high school community feel that the rule needs to be tweaked, then it will be expressed to the committee and appropriate measures will be taken. I can tell you we do that similar evaluation with every rule annually. I hope this helps in clearing things up for you."

If you go to the Hartford site now you will find that the referenced material above has been removed.

The POE about professionalism was entered into this years book PRECISELY because of local groups that would not call FED rules they did not like.

We have a job . . . that job is to call the rules of our client.

We have people here that work Little League I don't remember them complaining about those rules. We have people that work NABA I don't hear them complaining about those rules.

I am not sure "why" people have so much heartache about FED Baseball Rules. He!!, FED football and basketball have different rules, I don't see those areas of websites having the problems we seem to have in baseball.





[Edited by Tim C on Apr 7th, 2005 at 05:22 PM]

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Tim C
We have people here that work Little League I don't remember them complaining about those rules. We have people that work NABA I don't hear them complaining about those rules.

I am not sure "why" people have so much heartache about FED Baseball Rules. He!!, FED football and basketball have different rules, I don't see those areas of websites having the problems we seem to have in baseball.

Nice post Tee. (Not that you need someone to tell you, as all your posts are excellent .)

[billyhouston]

Originally posted by Tim C
In FEDlandia you can "balk" (Brad Rumble's term, not mine) when:

1) If in the wind-up position and the pitcher does the "start-stop" (you see it all the time when a pitcher stops in mid-windup and steps off and starts over) it is determined to be a "balk" (BR term) and a ball is added to the batter's count and,

2) If a pitcher is pitching from the set position and does not make a "stop" (just like with runners on base) it is to be called a "balk" (BR term) and a ball added to the batter's count.

These may not be written in the NFHS rule book, HOWEVER, they were published in the Federation Spring Newsletter during the last 10 years.

The editor of this website may have the specific dates of the newsletters.

In FED it appears that balks do occur with no runners on base.

In closing guys, what other rules do you ignore? Please read this years POEs and get back to me. I am interested to see how you justify not calling the rules that your client publishes.

Lah Me.

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 7th, 2005 at 09:42 AM]

I belive you are wrong Mr. Tim.
With all due respect, the FED rule book clearly states on page 17 Rule 2.3 art1.: A balk is an Illegal act committed by the pitcher with a runner(s) on base which entitles each runner to advance one base.
further more an Illegal pitch which is by fed rule page 21 2.18 art1: An illegal pitch is an illegal act committed by the pitcher with no runners on base, which results in a ball being awarded the batter. When an illegal pitch occurs with a runner, or runners, on base, IT IS A BALK!

There it is in BALK and white.
any way, I think I am going to call it when I see the illegal pitch for the reason I stated in my earlier post.

LOL

Billy