NFHS legal windup

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
Well, I spoke to our rules interperter in front of the membership about two things: The windup and the gorilla arm. The following is the results of that discussion (text in italics are the answers our rules interperter).

FED RULES

The Windup

Pitcher steps onto the rubber in the windup position with his hands at his sides. He then joins them in front of him and pauses.

The pitcher is now committed to the pitch. This is not a balk as long as the pitcher pitches. If he does anything else, that would be a balk.

The Gorilla Arm

Pitcher in the stretch swinging his pitching arm like a gorilla.

What rule is the pitcher breaking here? As long as the pitcher is hanging his arm at full extention and the ball is in the glove, there is no reason to consider this to be a balkable offense. If, however, he has the ball in his glove and the glove is tucked a his chest and the free arm is bent toward the chest close to the glove, that would be a deception to the runner. There is nothing that I can see that would cause me to call a balk on a pitcher with a "gorilla arm".

The membership was in full agreement and that is how we will be handling these two situations in Southern Connecticut.

Well, this makes my job easier. I have emailed your message to Elliot Hopkins at the National Federation. I'm sure he will be happy to investigate.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Hey Ozzy, I'm not asking you to argue. Just pointing out the folly of those "interpretations". Since I live in CT and am part of the Central CT association, the interpretations of your interpreter mean a little more, especially since he and Ray are tied at the hip.

Please don't take me wrong. I look at it this way, I'm a grunt and my "boss" says do it this way - so I will. But if I move to Pappa C's state, I'll have to change. But I'll still be a Rex Sox fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
Well, this makes my job easier. I have emailed your message to Elliot Hopkins at the National Federation. I'm sure he will be happy to investigate. [/B]

Thanks Carl. It would be nice if we are ALL on the same page, but alas, area differences abound. As I posted to another, I'm just a grunt and my "boss" says do it this way, so I will. If I move out to your way, I'll have to change.

Baseball - what a wonderful spit------I mean sport!

[Tim C]

Again, we have an umpire group (it appears yours this time) that selects to call rules as that want them rather than what the client requires.

I suggest your group read the POEs, especially the one about Professionalism.

[thumpferee]

I was just giving a local team (13-15 yr olds) a clinic on legal pitching positions. From the windup, I was telling them they could step onto the rubber with hands to their sides, and then bring hands together as they got the sign, pause and get ball set for the pitch they are going to make. From that position they could step off or pitch.

From what I have been reading that is wrong according to CC and others.

My question is how is that deceiving? I can see if there was another movement such as stepping back with the pivot foot and then bringing both hands together to make it look like the start of a windup.

I would also like to comment on statements made about well coached runners. Well coached runners will run once they see the non-pivot foot move back. If a pitcher steps off with his non-pivot foot and this is not called a balk, as some have stated it is not, you are giving the pitcher a great advantage. If I were coaching and my runner got picked off because you didn't call it, you better have a damn good reason when I come out, because I would be comin'!

JMO

[David B]

Originally posted by thumpferee
I was just giving a local team (13-15 yr olds) a clinic on legal pitching positions. From the windup, I was telling them they could step onto the rubber with hands to their sides, and then bring hands together as they got the sign, pause and get ball set for the pitch they are going to make. From that position they could step off or pitch.

From what I have been reading that is wrong according to CC and others.

My question is how is that deceiving? I can see if there was another movement such as stepping back with the pivot foot and then bringing both hands together to make it look like the start of a windup.

I would also like to comment on statements made about well coached runners. Well coached runners will run once they see the non-pivot foot move back. If a pitcher steps off with his non-pivot foot and this is not called a balk, as some have stated it is not, you are giving the pitcher a great advantage. If I were coaching and my runner got picked off because you didn't call it, you better have a damn good reason when I come out, because I would be comin'!

JMO

You must not have read the entire thread. I posted a few pages back as did Carl about the pitcher's intent in gaining an advantage. (And Carl gave several examples)

AGain, its an advantage because once he pauses, then he could step off with his "pivot" foot and make a play.
That's illegal.

Runners at third at taught to move once the pitcher starts his motion from the windup. At least that's the way a good coach will do it.

As far as the other, you can come out all you want. No one is going to get picked off when "everyone" in the ballpark knows what the pitcher is doing.

Again, I'm talking about kids that shave, even though I did have kid turn on the mound the other day in a 14yr select tourney and it was ignored, and no one said a word.

After the game a fan (coach) said something about it and I told him I didn't see it. (or during the game we could always have time)

Thanks
David

[Tim C]

The thread may be so long that you (thumpferee) may have missed the critical issue.

Under National Federation Rules the movement as described is the start of the wind-up. It is a balk for the same logic you are using with "stepping off with the wrong foot" issue.

Note: "I" have never said NOT to call the balk of stepping off with the wrong foot -- unlike a couple of posters here I do not feel it is a technical balk -- it is a critical move with a runner on third and in a potential squeeze situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by thumpferee
I was just giving a local team (13-15 yr olds) a clinic on legal pitching positions.

Do they play by FED rules or OBR (or, less likely, NCAA)? The move is legal in the latter two, but is the start of a pitch in the former.

[thumpferee]

It was OBR rules I was giving instruction under, but did not know there was a difference in FED.

I see now that FED believes this to be the start of a windup and should be called a balk.

Thanks for replies.

I edited this to ask: Under FED rules, if the pitcher steps onto the rubber with hands hands together, he can then step off?

[Edited by thumpferee on Apr 13th, 2005 at 09:50 AM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by Tim C
Again, we have an umpire group (it appears yours this time) that selects to call rules as that want them rather than what the client requires.

I suggest your group read the POEs, especially the one about Professionalism.

Tee:

I can't believe you've actually made yourself believe (as part of your sig line mantra) that the NFHS is the client.

My clients would be: The schools, the leagues, and the state office. I can't remember EVER getting a check from or directly interfacing with the NFHS.

--Rich

[Tim C]

And I totally disagree with you, respectfully of course.

The NFHS IS the client if a school is signatory to their association. No local high school has ever officially changed an NFHS rule -- the schools select to answer directly to the NFHS and therefore, in my opinion, that makes the FED the ultimate client.

Just because your check comes from a school (BTW, I do not receive checks directly from any school, ever, we are paid through my association -- does that mean that my association is my client?) it does not, in my opinion, mean that they are the client.

Now let's get back to more important things like:

Umpires in the State of Connecticut (state wide) are told to NOT call FED pitching rules.

It is a direct representation of the State Interpreter telling the state umpires to change rules that he does not agree with.

The SI has told stories that are simply untrue to local boards. It is obvious that the SI does not want FED pitching rules called.

Oh yeah, their State Interpreter was head of the FED rules committee for four years.

It is sad Rich, it is sad.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Tim C
And I totally disagree with you, respectfully of course.

The NFHS IS the client if a school is signatory to their association. No local high school has ever officially changed an NFHS rule -- the schools select to answer directly to the NFHS and therefore, in my opinion, that makes the FED the ultimate client.

Just because your check comes from a school (BTW, I do not receive checks directly from any school, ever, we are paid through my association -- does that mean that my association is my client?) it does not, in my opinion, mean that they are the client.

Now let's get back to more important things like:

Umpires in the State of Connecticut (state wide) are told to NOT call FED pitching rules.

It is a direct representation of the State Interpreter telling the state umpires to change rules that he does not agree with.

The SI has told stories that are simply untrue to local boards. It is obvious that the SI does not want FED pitching rules called.

Oh yeah, their State Interpreter was head of the FED rules committee for four years.

It is sad Rich, it is sad.

At the end of the day, what does it matter to us? I don't CARE what they do in Connecticut. If the SI's directive is clearly communicated to the teams and umpires and everyone is on the same page, they are a step ahead of many places in the US. Now, if the SI only mentions this to a few people and the rulings are inconsistent statewide, then it's a different issue.

Part of moving to WI was determining what was expected of umpires here WRT balks. I certainly can't go around being the only umpire in the state calling the "bring both hands up in the windup and pause" balk or the old "shoulder-turn" balk. It doesn't help the teams, the game, or my prospects of getting and maintaining a good schedule.

And if the CT teams head up to MA or over to RI to play, they'll be in for a shock since they use OBR for HS games. Or they did, anyway, when I lived in MA.

--Rich

[David B]

Originally posted by Tim C
The thread may be so long that you (thumpferee) may have missed the critical issue.

Under National Federation Rules the movement as described is the start of the wind-up. It is a balk for the same logic you are using with "stepping off with the wrong foot" issue.

Note: "I" have never said NOT to call the balk of stepping off with the wrong foot -- unlike a couple of posters here I do not feel it is a technical balk -- it is a critical move with a runner on third and in a potential squeeze situation.

Tee you are exactly correct, if the runner is on third or squeeze position the stepping off with the wrong foot is considered. Especially if he's making a move to the base.

I probably confused everyone, the play that I'm talking about is when the pitcher steps on the rubber and everyone in the ballpark is saying "hey dummy step off" and the pitcher might step off or step sideways or something but it might not be with the correct foot.

Usually its F2 who is the one who steps from behind the plate or stands up and hollers etc.,

So that's what I'm talking about, don't know about anyone else.

Thanks
David

[largeone59]

Originally posted by Tim C

Note: "I" have never said NOT to call the balk of stepping off with the wrong foot -- unlike a couple of posters here I do not feel it is a technical balk -- it is a critical move with a runner on third and in a potential squeeze situation.

I agree 110%.