NFHS legal windup

[gobama84]

Originally posted by DG
I know a balk when I see it, by black letter rule, but I am trying to rationalize the "technical ones" not to call. I would call stepping off with the wrong foot, everyone expects it. I have not, to date, called bringing hands together and stopping, in FED, because no one expects it. [/B]

Most people on this board calling FED expect it, so start calling it. A BALK is a BALK.

[David B]

Originally posted by gobama84

Most people on this board calling FED expect it, so start calling it. A BALK is a BALK. [/B]

Not to be pesky,(is that a word even??), but I just don't like it when I hear an umpire say "I know a balk when I see it."

What we have been trying to point out is that you can also "know a balk" by what the rules say and without seeing it for that matter.

If your coaches don't expect it, then that speaks a lot of your coaches. Ours would have you for lunch if it wasn't called, and I know the guys in TX would also, I called there for 10 years.

Thanks
David

[DG]

Carl wrote a book, 51 Ways to Ruin a BASEBALL Game. I bought it, read it, enjoyed it. Number 7, was "Call a (highly) technical balk". Play 10 was stepping off with the wrong foot. That would get called every time by a FED umpire in my area. Everyone expects it and you get an earful from the bench if you did not see it and call it. However, bringing the hands together in front, and stopping, would not get a sound from anybody. I have NEVER heard anyone mention this one not being called. Maybe it's because there is a lot of OBR played after HS season, and it's not a balk in OBR. I just know it's a highly technical balk in these parts that nobody is concerned about. You guys in other parts continue to do what you do. But don't chastise me for doing what is normal and expected around here.

Maybe we need a new book on regional differences.

[David B]

Originally posted by DG
Carl wrote a book, 51 Ways to Ruin a BASEBALL Game. I bought it, read it, enjoyed it. Number 7, was "Call a (highly) technical balk". Play 10 was stepping off with the wrong foot. That would get called every time by a FED umpire in my area. Everyone expects it and you get an earful from the bench if you did not see it and call it. However, bringing the hands together in front, and stopping, would not get a sound from anybody. I have NEVER heard anyone mention this one not being called. Maybe it's because there is a lot of OBR played after HS season, and it's not a balk in OBR. I just know it's a highly technical balk in these parts that nobody is concerned about. You guys in other parts continue to do what you do. But don't chastise me for doing what is normal and expected around here.

Maybe we need a new book on regional differences.

that you would actually CALL a balk when a guy steps back with the wrong foot?

That's LL stuff. Coaches like to complain about that becuase LL umpires call it all the time because that's the only thing they know to call that can be a balk.

Once they reach HS, everyone knows when the pitcher is going to change positions because the coach (or infielder) will say "hey dummy, step off".

Why not call a real balk, and then have fun explaining to the coach how you know the rule and here it is etc., that's what I call having fun being an umpire.

Thanks
David

[Kaliix]

Let me ask this question. Let's say the pitcher is steping on the rubber and while he is bringing both feet together on the rubber, he is moving both hands to a position in front of his body. The pitcher is basically bringing his hands together as he steps on the rubber.

Is this allowed? Or is it a balk?

What if he steps on the rubber with his hands out in front of him, but there not at his sides and but not directly in front of him either. Kind of in between at his sides and infront of him. The pitcher then doesn't move his hands to be in front of him and take his sign until his feet are in position on the rubber, which means there might be a pause with his hands at that in between position before he brings them directly in front of his body.

Is this allowed? Or is it a balk?

I am asking because these are the types of moves I see kids make and I want to know if these are considered balks or not?

It sounds like what most in this thread are calling a balk is when the pitcher engages the rubber with his hands at his sides, there is a pause and then he moves both hands to in front of his body. Am I reading this right?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Let me ask this question. Let's say the pitcher is steping on the rubber and while he is bringing both feet together on the rubber, he is moving both hands to a position in front of his body. The pitcher is basically bringing his hands together as he steps on the rubber.

Is this allowed? Or is it a balk?

Allowed. It's all part of "getting comfortable on the rubber." If we took the FED's "the pitching restrictions start when F1 intentionally contacts the rubber with the pivot foot" literally, we'd have dozens of balks a game.

What if he steps on the rubber with his hands out in front of him, but there not at his sides and but not directly in front of him either. Kind of in between at his sides and infront of him. The pitcher then doesn't move his hands to be in front of him and take his sign until his feet are in position on the rubber, which means there might be a pause with his hands at that in between position before he brings them directly in front of his body.

Is this allowed? Or is it a balk?

If the pitcher has become "comfortable" and then moves both hands together, he has started his pitch.

I am asking because these are the types of moves I see kids make and I want to know if these are considered balks or not?

It sounds like what most in this thread are calling a balk is when the pitcher engages the rubber with his hands at his sides, there is a pause and then he moves both hands to in front of his body. Am I reading this right?

Yes, you are reading this right.

[Rich]

Originally posted by David B

that you would actually CALL a balk when a guy steps back with the wrong foot?

That's LL stuff. Coaches like to complain about that becuase LL umpires call it all the time because that's the only thing they know to call that can be a balk.

Once they reach HS, everyone knows when the pitcher is going to change positions because the coach (or infielder) will say "hey dummy, step off".

Why not call a real balk, and then have fun explaining to the coach how you know the rule and here it is etc., that's what I call having fun being an umpire.

Thanks
David

I'd call that in a HS or college game EVERY TIME. The wrong foot back is the time of the pitch.

It's no wonder newer umpires have so much trouble with this.

[ozzy6900]

Well, I spoke to our rules interperter in front of the membership about two things: The windup and the gorilla arm. The following is the results of that discussion (text in italics are the answers our rules interperter).

FED RULES

The Windup

Pitcher steps onto the rubber in the windup position with his hands at his sides. He then joins them in front of him and pauses.

The pitcher is now committed to the pitch. This is not a balk as long as the pitcher pitches. If he does anything else, that would be a balk.

The Gorilla Arm

Pitcher in the stretch swinging his pitching arm like a gorilla.

What rule is the pitcher breaking here? As long as the pitcher is hanging his arm at full extention and the ball is in the glove, there is no reason to consider this to be a balkable offense. If, however, he has the ball in his glove and the glove is tucked a his chest and the free arm is bent toward the chest close to the glove, that would be a deception to the runner. There is nothing that I can see that would cause me to call a balk on a pitcher with a "gorilla arm".

The membership was in full agreement and that is how we will be handling these two situations in Southern Connecticut.

[GarthB]

Oh, well.

[Kaliix]

Ozzy,
Was this you local rules interpreter or our state interpreter?

Rule 6-1-2 clearly says "After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interuption or alteration." If he is committed to pitch then he must have started his pitching motion. You either start your motion and are committed to pitch or you haven't, which means you can step off. But if you have committed to pitch, you can't pause. How does the rules interpreter rationalize that?

The gorilla arm interpretation is just flat out wrong. The rule interpretation is on the website. It reads
"SITUATION 5: While in the set position, F1 has his pitching hand down in front of his body, swinging slowly as he gets the sign from the catcher. RULING: The use of this “gorilla” stance in the set position is illegal. A pitcher, for the set position, shall have his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back. (6-1-3)"

I don't get it? I tought these guys are supposed to know the rules?

Originally posted by ozzy6900
Well, I spoke to our rules interperter in front of the membership about two things: The windup and the gorilla arm. The following is the results of that discussion (text in italics are the answers our rules interperter).

FED RULES

The Windup

Pitcher steps onto the rubber in the windup position with his hands at his sides. He then joins them in front of him and pauses.

The pitcher is now committed to the pitch. This is not a balk as long as the pitcher pitches. If he does anything else, that would be a balk.

The Gorilla Arm

Pitcher in the stretch swinging his pitching arm like a gorilla.

What rule is the pitcher breaking here? As long as the pitcher is hanging his arm at full extention and the ball is in the glove, there is no reason to consider this to be a balkable offense. If, however, he has the ball in his glove and the glove is tucked a his chest and the free arm is bent toward the chest close to the glove, that would be a deception to the runner. There is nothing that I can see that would cause me to call a balk on a pitcher with a "gorilla arm".

The membership was in full agreement and that is how we will be handling these two situations in Southern Connecticut.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Ozzy,
Was this you local rules interpreter or our state interpreter?

This was our rules interperter. And I am really not going to argue - I'm just a grunt. I told all of you that I would get the interpertation from our rules interperter. If anyone wants to go the the state interperter here in CT, that's fine. But I know our rules guy and he and the state interperter are usually tied at the hip!

[GarthB]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

This was our rules interperter. And I am really not going to argue - I'm just a grunt. I told all of you that I would get the interpertation from our rules interperter. If anyone wants to go the the state interperter here in CT, that's fine. But I know our rules guy and he and the state interperter are usually tied at the hip!

No matter the physical relationship between your "rules guy" and the state interpreter it wouldn't be the first time the CT interpreter went against the clear instructions of FED and when he's corrected, it won't be the first that's happened either.

[Kaliix]

Hey Ozzy, I'm not asking you to argue. Just pointing out the folly of those "interpretations". Since I live in CT and am part of the Central CT association, the interpretations of your interpreter mean a little more, especially since he and Ray are tied at the hip.

Ray was already proven dead wrong on the whole shoulder turn balk test question and it appears that if the interpreters are tied at the hip, he is dead wrong about the gorilla arm interpretation as well. I would bet money on the windup question.

I am beginning to have very little faith in our state interpreter.

Originally posted by ozzy6900

This was our rules interperter. And I am really not going to argue - I'm just a grunt. I told all of you that I would get the interpertation from our rules interperter. If anyone wants to go the the state interperter here in CT, that's fine. But I know our rules guy and he and the state interperter are usually tied at the hip!

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Hey Ozzy, I'm not asking you to argue. Just pointing out the folly of those "interpretations". Since I live in CT and am part of the Central CT association, the interpretations of your interpreter mean a little more, especially since he and Ray are tied at the hip.

Ray was already proven dead wrong on the whole shoulder turn balk test question and it appears that if the interpreters are tied at the hip, he is dead wrong about the gorilla arm interpretation as well. I would bet money on the windup question.

I am beginning to have very little faith in our state interpreter.

And if you have'nt had enough Kaliix, I find out the other day that "Ground Rule Triples" are also quite acceptable here too.

Have a Wonderful Season?????????????????

[DG]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
FED RULES

The Windup

Pitcher steps onto the rubber in the windup position with his hands at his sides. He then joins them in front of him and pauses.

The Gorilla Arm

Pitcher in the stretch swinging his pitching arm like a gorilla.

Both of these situations are balks, per FED rules and interps. But apparently regional differences vary on whether these are too technical to call.