R3 Misses Plate on Walk

[Rich Ives]

"I have to admit that I agree with Rich Ives!!!!!"

I'm sure it's just a fluke and things will return to normal. ;-)

[NFump]

I'm with Tim and Rich on this one. With the runner returning to the immediate vicinity of the base he must be tagged. Only allow an appeal if the runner is not any where close to the base. From J/R: (In red) In relaxed action the runner(whose action is being appealed) is inactive, he is standing on another base, or is well removed from the base at which the appeal is being made. In unrelaxed action the runner(whose action is being appealed) is trying to scramble to a base and the ball is in, or approaching the vicinity. In this sitch the runner is definitely active as he is trying to return. Tag'em.

[DG]

Immediate may not be defined in the rule book, but is defined in Webster's dictionary. A runner who has left the dirt area and is high-fiving his teammates near the dugout, who only tries to return when he realizes the defense is appealing, has passed by the immediate stage of this play. His actions as he walks away is a relaxed action. I respect the opinions of others though.

[dddunn3d]

First,

From Dictionary.com:
im·me·di·ate adj.

1. Occurring at once; instant: gave me an immediate response.
2. Of or near the present time: in the immediate future.
3. Of or relating to the present time and place; current: “It is probable that, apart from the most immediate, pragmatic, technical revisions, the writer's effort to detach himself from his work is quixotic” (Joyce Carol Oates).
4. Close at hand; near: in the immediate vicinity. See synonyms at close.
5. Next in line or relation: is an immediate successor to the president of the company.
6. Directly apprehended or perceived: had immediate awareness of the scope of the crisis.
7. Acting or occurring without the interposition of another agency or object; direct.

As used in 7.08(k), immediate has the definition of #1 above, not #4.

Second,

Immediate is used elsewhere in Rule 7.00. Refer to 7.08(c):
Any runner is out when --
He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base.
EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base.

What is the difference between this "immediate" and the one in 7.08(k)?

Third,

Why were the clauses (j) and (k) added to 7.08 in the first place?

(j) was added to clairify further plays involving 7.08(c) EXCEPTION.

(k) was added because the defense, in a missed home situation, had no recourse under the other 7.08 clauses other than chasing down the runner.

I can't remember the details, but I do remember reading some MLB history(1940's or 50's I think) wherein a runner missed home as in this situation. The throw in to F2 was off-line. F2(maybe Berra, not sure) realized that the runner missed home and retrieved the ball. By this time the runner is sitting in his dugout with his teammates. F2 isn't sure which guy was the runner so he goes down the bench and tags them all!

He could take the time to do that because there was only the one runner. It was quickly realized, however, that if there were other runners they would have been able to advance while F2 was busy chasing down the errant runner. It did not seem right that the defense was being forced to make the choice between negating a run or preventing other runners from advancing. After all, it was the runner missing home, an offensive baserunning error, which was forcing the defense to make that choice.

Hence the 7.08(k) clause, and the subseqent AR making it incumbent upon the runner to immediately make an effort to touch home after missing it.

[Rich Ives]

You don't like the call so you're trying to find a reason. Give it up.

You can't use definition 1. We know it can't be definition 1 "Occurring at once; instant" because that really isn't physically possible.

For another look at "immediate" look at 7.08(c) [which you are attempting to invoke]. Do you require "instant" return or a definition 2 "near the present time - immeduate future" return? Most runners go a ways past the base, make a slow pivot, and walk of jog back. It certainly isn't "instant". It certainly is "near the present time - immediate future". No one ever gets called out for that. Must fulfill "immediate" as it pertains to baseball rules.

Therefore you have to go with definition 2 "Of or near the present time - immediate future".

The play meets all the criteria. A tag is required.

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
You don't like the call so you're trying to find a reason. Give it up.

You can't use definition 1. We know it can't be definition 1 "Occurring at once; instant" because that really isn't physically possible.

For another look at "immediate" look at 7.08(c) [which you are attempting to invoke]. Do you require "instant" return or a definition 2 "near the present time - immeduate future" return? Most runners go a ways past the base, make a slow pivot, and walk of jog back. It certainly isn't "instant". It certainly is "near the present time - immediate future". No one ever gets called out for that. Must fulfill "immediate" as it pertains to baseball rules.

Therefore you have to go with definition 2 "Of or near the present time - immediate future".

The play meets all the criteria. A tag is required.

A runner slides past the plate, is on the ground in the dirt area, and is diving back to tag the plate. This is immediate. Tag him. A runner has left the dirt area and is high fiving his teammates. Tag the plate and appeal to the umpire. This is too easy. You don't like this call either, but in a game you will have to live with it.

[dddunn3d]

Obviously, unless you have runners travelling at about 186,000 mi/sec, any action on the ball field will be non-immediate. However, we are not in Tron!. Staying for a moment in reality, it's not the result of the runner's action which must be immediate, it's the beginning of his action that must meet the immediate criterion. Therefore, when R3 missed home plate, travelled towards his dug-out accepting his team's accolades on his baserunning prowess, he lost the privilege of having to be tagged for the put-out.

I understand where you disagree; it's where the clause itself states that the runner "...makes no attempt to return to the base." Clearly in this situation R3 attempted to return. But you ignore the casebook notation which clearly defines when the runner must start his attempt to return to home!

I also have seen this play, maybe not a hundred times, but enough to see it called both ways. That just lends credence to my earlier assertion that it is the umpire's prerogative to judge what immediate means in the context of the play: within two seconds, three steps, before entering the dug-out, etc.

Rich, perhaps your daily, reality-based definition of immediate is different from mine. I am an air traffic controller. When I tell a pilot to make a thirty degree left-turn immediately it means right f$%&*@g now! The pilot knows this explictly, and within seconds I observe his radar track turning left. (I should also say that controllers use this specific word only when absolutely necessary to safeguard lives, and the pilots know it.)

After reviewing your pleadings in this thread, I find that I have explained why I believe my position is the correct one, and I have clearly refuted every explanation you have offered in trying to defend yours.

Take it from Aristotle: The unexamined life is not worth living.

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 16th, 2005 at 01:04 AM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by dddunn3d


Take it from Aristotle: The unexamined life is not worth living.

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 16th, 2005 at 01:04 AM]

I prefer Firesign Theatre:

"If you push something hard enough, it WILL fall over."

[mbyron]

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Take it from Aristotle: The unexamined life is not worth living.

That was Socrates (or Plato "quoting" Socrates), though some say Aristotle agreed.

Sorry, umpiring is only my hobby.

[Kaliix]

I agree with Rich, Tim, et. al.

Rule 7.08(k) reads "In running or sliding for home base, he fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to the base, when a fielder holds the ball in his hand, while touching home base, and appeals to the umpire for the decision."

The rule clearly states that the he (the runner) must make no attempt to return in order for it to be an appeal play.

Rule 7.10(d) reads "He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged." (referencing an appeal play)

7.10(d) is the rule that governs an appeal play at home and that rule has no "immediate" stipulation in it. It states that an appeal play can be made if no attempt to return to home is made.

Since an attempt to return was being made, a legal appeal cannot be made and the runner must be tagged.

You cannot invoke 7.08(k) in this instance because the play in which "F2, who now steps on the plate" is attempting an appeal at home which is governed by 7.10(d)

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Obviously, unless you have runners travelling at about 186,000 mi/sec, any action on the ball field will be non-immediate. However, we are not in Tron!. Staying for a moment in reality, it's not the result of the runner's action which must be immediate, it's the beginning of his action that must meet the immediate criterion. Therefore, when R3 missed home plate, travelled towards his dug-out accepting his team's accolades on his baserunning prowess, he lost the privilege of having to be tagged for the put-out.

I understand where you disagree; it's where the clause itself states that the runner "...makes no attempt to return to the base." Clearly in this situation R3 attempted to return. But you ignore the casebook notation which clearly defines when the runner must start his attempt to return to home!

I also have seen this play, maybe not a hundred times, but enough to see it called both ways. That just lends credence to my earlier assertion that it is the umpire's prerogative to judge what immediate means in the context of the play: within two seconds, three steps, before entering the dug-out, etc.

Rich, perhaps your daily, reality-based definition of immediate is different from mine. I am an air traffic controller. When I tell a pilot to make a thirty degree left-turn immediately it means right f$%&*@g now! The pilot knows this explictly, and within seconds I observe his radar track turning left. (I should also say that controllers use this specific word only when absolutely necessary to safeguard lives, and the pilots know it.)

After reviewing your pleadings in this thread, I find that I have explained why I believe my position is the correct one, and I have clearly refuted every explanation you have offered in trying to defend yours.

Take it from Aristotle: The unexamined life is not worth living.

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 16th, 2005 at 01:04 AM]

[bob jenkins]

The FED rule on this is clear -- the runner must be tagged if he attempts to return to home before the appeal. See 8.2.2N

Someone who has a BRD handy can look to see if the OBR rule is any different.

[Rich Ives]

DG and dddunn

You seem to be in a minority position. It's not just me. Consider that you may be incorrect.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by mbyron

That was Socrates (or Plato "quoting" Socrates), though some say Aristotle agreed.

Sorry, umpiring is only my hobby.

Of course Socrates would say that. Examining life was his job.

[mcrowder]

I've still not understood why the word "immediate" was even being debated. This seems extremely clear that if the runner is trying to return to the base, he must be tagged, and in the original sitch, he was very near the base when the appeal occurred.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
The FED rule on this is clear -- the runner must be tagged if he attempts to return to home before the appeal. See 8.2.2N

Someone who has a BRD handy can look to see if the OBR rule is any different.

Section 462 pg281 BRD 2005. FED: The runner must be tagged if trying to return OR the defense touches the plate during continuing action on proper appeal. So it seems that tagging the player or making a live ball appeal is discretionary upon the official, wether they feel the runner is returning or not. Unless the runner enters the dugout.

"I believe" it is implied that in OBR up until the runner enters the dugout, action is considered "unrelaxed" as some are saying here, and the runner must be tagged. The appeal for an out in OBR can only happen after the runner enters the dugout.