R3 Misses Plate on Walk

[dddunn3d]

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.

(And I find myself chagrined for my own mis-attribution of Socrates' quote.)

[Edited by dddunn3d on Feb 17th, 2005 at 01:37 AM]

[Kaliix]

The relevant point of the play in question is as follows "Pitcher was standing in front of the mound. F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate,just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home.

This is an appeal play of a missed home plate and Rule 7.10(d) applies. Rule 7.10(d) reads "...he fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged."

The runner was making an attempt to return to the base, and the ball arrived just ahead of his return. J/R defines unrelaxed action as, ..."the runner (whose action is being appealed) is trying to scramble to a base and the ball is in, or approaching, the vicinity." J/R goes on to say that a missed base appeal of first or home by way of taging the alleged missed base can only occur when the action is relaxed.

This is the relevant appeal rule and the relevant use of relaxed versus unrelaxed action. If the runner is scrambling back to the base, a tag appeal of the runner is the only option offered to the defense. They cannot tag the base if the runner is scrambling back to the base, regardless of how long it took said runner to start scrambling. Immediate doesn't factor into the equation because that stipulation is not a part of the relevant appeal rule. The runner is unrelaxed and a tag of said runner is the only way to appeal.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG

I'm not going to answer your question because if you read my post you would know the answer. If you will read it again very carefully you will learn how I would rule in this situation. Hint = key word = immediate.

[Edited by Kaliix on Feb 16th, 2005 at 10:56 PM]

[dddunn3d]

Rule 7.08 starts thusly:
Any runner is out when --

And, Rule 7.10 starts:
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal when --

Do you see and understand the difference between these two rules, and when they should be applied?

As I've tried to make clear, the entire reason that 7.08(k) was added to the rules is to spare the catcher from having to chase a runner all over the ballpark trying to tag him.

7.08(k), IMO, supercedes 7.10(d) in these situations because of the inclusion of the sentence "It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged." If this is defined as the proper application of the rule in the ordinary case, then the proper application of the reverse is also true. (I.E., it is not required to tag the runner if he has not made an immediate effort to touch the plate.) However, we have that little caveat in the text of 7.08(k) and 7.10(d): "...and [he] makes no attempt to return to the base..."

Here then the culmination of my argument:[list=1][*]If an appeal is initiated by the defense on a runner who has missed home, and such runner has not yet attempted to correct his error at the time of such appeal, that runner is subject to being called out on the appeal, unless;[list=a][*]Such runner is, in the opinion of the umpire, sufficently near the area surrounding home plate so that the catcher would not have to give chase to the runner.[*]Such runner has immediately initiated an attempt to touch home to correct his error.[/list=a]
These above exceptions require that the runner be tagged.
[*]If a runner misses home and initiates an attempt to correct his error before the defense initiates an appeal of his miss, then he must be tagged for the out unless;[list=a][*]Such runner is, in the opinion of the umpire, sufficiently removed from the area surrounding home plate, so that the catcher would have to give chase to the runner.[/list=a][/list=1]
In any case, if after missing home, the runner then enters DBT he may not return to correct his error.

How's that?

[ozzy6900]

This thread is getting ridiculous!

[Kaliix]

dddunn3d,
7.08(k) can't supercede 7.10(d) for a couple reasons:
1) You can't pick and choose what part of the rule you want to follow. 7.08(k) states that the "rule applies only where runner is on his way to the bench and the catcher would be required to chase him." In the given play, the runner was attempting to touch home, so 7.08(k) CANNOT APPLY.

2)The play in question is an appeal play and appeals are governed under 7.10. Hence the Any runner shall be called out, on appeal when -- beginning. Do YOU understand the difference?

The runner was returning, action was unrelaxed, the only type of appeal allowed per MLB Rules and J/R is a tag of the runner.

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Rule 7.08 starts thusly:
Any runner is out when --

And, Rule 7.10 starts:
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal when --

Do you see and understand the difference between these two rules, and when they should be applied?

As I've tried to make clear, the entire reason that 7.08(k) was added to the rules is to spare the catcher from having to chase a runner all over the ballpark trying to tag him.

7.08(k), IMO, supercedes 7.10(d) in these situations because of the inclusion of the sentence "It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged." If this is defined as the proper application of the rule in the ordinary case, then the proper application of the reverse is also true. (I.E., it is not required to tag the runner if he has not made an immediate effort to touch the plate.) However, we have that little caveat in the text of 7.08(k) and 7.10(d): "...and [he] makes no attempt to return to the base..."

Here then the culmination of my argument:[list=1][*]If an appeal is initiated by the defense on a runner who has missed home, and such runner has not yet attempted to correct his error at the time of such appeal, that runner is subject to being called out on the appeal, unless;[list=a][*]Such runner is, in the opinion of the umpire, sufficently near the area surrounding home plate so that the catcher would not have to give chase to the runner.[*]Such runner has immediately initiated an attempt to touch home to correct his error.[/list=a]
These above exceptions require that the runner be tagged.
[*]If a runner misses home and initiates an attempt to correct his error before the defense initiates an appeal of his miss, then he must be tagged for the out unless;[list=a][*]Such runner is, in the opinion of the umpire, sufficiently removed from the area surrounding home plate, so that the catcher would have to give chase to the runner.[/list=a][/list=1]
In any case, if after missing home, the runner then enters DBT he may not return to correct his error.

How's that?

[Rich Ives]

"Hint = key word = immediate."

If you are going to use the dictionary definition of words to make a ruling, then please let us know how you call an "out of the baseline" violation in a rundown.

Do you subscribe to the "runner makes his own baseline" approach or do you use the actual words which read:

"7.08 Any runner is out when_
a) 1) He runs more than three feet away from a direct line between bases to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball;"

If you accept that this rule may not mean exactly what it says in terms of strict dictionary definitions , then you have to accept that other rules may not mean what the exact definition means.

[Tim C]

3d wrote:

"Do you see and understand the difference between these two rules, and when they should be applied?"

Are you actually trying to tell us that YOU understand these rules BETTER than we do?

Tee

[mcrowder]

dddd/dg - you guys are asking for "authorities" on these rules. You're getting them. And then arguing with them, asking for authorities. Not sure why you are continuing the argument, and why their explanations have not been valid in your mind.

[fwump]

Interesting thread with very valid arguments on both sides. Let me add some some clarification if I may.

From original sitch:

Bases Loaded. Ball 4 to batter. R3 comes in, but misses home plate by about two feet, fair territory, continuing on towards his 1st base dugout. Starts high-fiving teammates, etc. Does not get all the way to the dugout.
Def coach notices this, and calls for the pitcher to throw the ball back to the catcher. Pitcher was standing in front of the mound. F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate, just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home.

Form the picture in your mind's eye. He passes and misses home plate and head towards 1st base dugout. This is where his natural momentum is taking him. In my experience as well as everyone else's, offensive players will come out of dugout towards home plate to high five player who is scoring on a bases loaded walk or home run. So he probably is not very far removed from plate area. Then the Def coach alerts him to the fact that an appeal play is emminent and tries to return...IMO a short distance...
as catcher is tagging the plate, "just ahead of the now conscious R3". In this case I would agree with the Off coach. A tag should have been made.

[dddunn3d]

Bases loaded, 3-0 count, next pitch ball 4, R3 as before misses home plate.

R3 continues towards his dugout, a good 80' away from the plate, and is just two steps away from entering. At this time one of his teammates shouts to R3, "They're appealing you missing home!" R3 turns and observes that F1 has thrown the ball to F2; the ball is about half-way to home. R3 then starts to run back to the plate. Before R3 has traversed even one-third of the distance back to the plate, F2 has secured the ball while touching home, and asks for the appeal.

Is this a legal appeal or does F2 have to tag R3?

[dddunn3d]

For Rich Ives' benefit:

I follow the well-defined essence of 7.08(a) in that the "direct line between bases" starts from the point on the field where the runner is standing, and extends from that point to each of the bases to which he can travel. Ergo,

The "skunk in the outfield" is a legal play.

[dddunn3d]

Notice I said well defined. As this thread shows this type of play and the rules governing is far from well defined.

Now will someone please offer their ruling on my adjunct play:

Bases loaded, 3-0 count, next pitch ball 4, R3 as before misses home plate.

R3 continues towards his dugout, a good 80' away from the plate, and is just two steps away from entering. At this time one of his teammates shouts to R3, "They're appealing you missing home!" R3 turns and observes that F1 has thrown the ball to F2; the ball is about half-way to home. R3 then starts to run back to the plate. Before R3 has traversed even one-third of the distance back to the plate, F2 has secured the ball while touching home, and asks for the appeal.

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Bases loaded, 3-0 count, next pitch ball 4, R3 as before misses home plate.

R3 continues towards his dugout, a good 80' away from the plate, and is just two steps away from entering. At this time one of his teammates shouts to R3, "They're appealing you missing home!" R3 turns and observes that F1 has thrown the ball to F2; the ball is about half-way to home. R3 then starts to run back to the plate. Before R3 has traversed even one-third of the distance back to the plate, F2 has secured the ball while touching home, and asks for the appeal.

Is this a legal appeal or does F2 have to tag R3?

This rule applies only where runner is on his way to the bench and the catcher would be required to chase him.


Would the catcher have to chase the runner (leave the plate area)?

[Rich Ives]

Notice I said well defined. As this thread shows this type of play and the rules governing is far from well defined.


7.08(a)(1) is well defined. It's just "wrong".

The rules are not black and white. That's why there are case books and interpretation manuals. Roder even has a book "More Than 100 Problems With The Official Baseball Rules".


At this point, is there ANYONE you would believe?

[Kaliix]

I like Rich's answer, if the catcher is going to have to give chase in order to make the tag, then standing on the plate with the ball and appealing is sufficient.

That is in sharp contrast to the runner arriving back at the plate a moment before the ball. In that case, a tag is required in order to make an appeal per the earlier stated rules.

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Bases loaded, 3-0 count, next pitch ball 4, R3 as before misses home plate.

R3 continues towards his dugout, a good 80' away from the plate, and is just two steps away from entering. At this time one of his teammates shouts to R3, "They're appealing you missing home!" R3 turns and observes that F1 has thrown the ball to F2; the ball is about half-way to home. R3 then starts to run back to the plate. Before R3 has traversed even one-third of the distance back to the plate, F2 has secured the ball while touching home, and asks for the appeal.

Is this a legal appeal or does F2 have to tag R3?