umpire quiz

[southump]

would like to hear oppinions on this one.
scenario: R3 runs back to 2nd. base and gets it.
rule 7.01: "If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base"

Question 1.- If he does it, what?

Question 2.-If pitcher has not assumed his P.P., Then?

Rule 7.08i: "after he has adquire legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game"

Question 3: How about if he doesn´t mean that?

I love this game, Enjoy as much as I do.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by southump
Rule 7.08i: "after he has adquire legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game"

Question 3: How about if he doesn´t mean that?

What other reason would he have for running in reverse order? Just call him out.

[Roman Konecny]

Hmmm.
What about this situation: Pick of at 1st goes wild, R1 goes all the way to 3B. Ball is returned to pitcher who assumes his pitching position. Just after that coach on 3B sends him back to 2B believing he did not tough 2B (which he did). Pitcher throw (no balk) to F4 but not in time, runner slide back to 2B 'safely' and is tagged by F4 after that.

Now what? Both rules 7.01 and 7.08 i) partially refers to this situation but have different outcomes.

[Gee]

I'd just call time and put him back on third and tell him he can't do that, using OBR 7.01 which, in my opinion supercedes OBR 7.08(i)and would take it out of the equation. If the pitcher wasn't in position to pitch I would leave him at second, who's to complain?

It has happened to me AFTER a pitch. R1 was stealing, batter foul tips and R1 makes second. Offensive coach yells out FOUL Ball. I turn to coach and tell him it was a foul tip and ball stays live. I turn back and find the runner back at first. Coach asks me to put him back at second. Sorry coach you made him come back to first so you can put him back at second but remember the ball is (a)live. Batter up. G

[Shmuelg]

Excellet call, Gee.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Shmuelg
Excellet call, Gee.

The BRD section 419 carries an official interpretation from Mike Fitzpatrick, head of PBUC: If a runner tries to return to a previously occupied base after the pitcher has the ball on the pitcher's plate, the umpire will warn him. If he persists, he is out. Above all, the umpire must not permit the defense to play on the runner.

[Gee]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

The BRD section 419 carries an official interpretation from Mike Fitzpatrick, head of PBUC: If a runner tries to return to a previously occupied base after the pitcher has the ball on the pitcher's plate, the umpire will warn him. If he persists, he is out. Above all, the umpire must not permit the defense to play on the runner.

C2,

I have a problem with that Minor League ruling in an OBR game.

Situation:

OBR.

Batter hits a triple and is now on third. The ball comes into F4 at second and defensive coach calls time out and goes to talk to the pitcher. R3 knows he missed second and assumes the meeting is for an appeal at second.

Once the pitcher is set and play is called R3 darts back to second. Pitcher, in his haste, throws the ball into center field. R3 (re)tags second and ends up at third and your going to call him out? I know I'd have trouble doing that.

The only way I have an out on that play is if defense tags second base when the ball comes in as the retag was not allowed and I would negate R3's attempt or if the defense makes another proper appeal I would allow it for the out. Other than that I have nothing. G

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Gee

C2,

I have a problem with that Minor League ruling in an OBR game.

Situation:

OBR.

Batter hits a triple and is now on third. The ball comes into F4 at second and defensive coach calls time out and goes to talk to the pitcher. R3 knows he missed second and assumes the meeting is for an appeal at second.

Once the pitcher is set and play is called R3 darts back to second. Pitcher, in his haste, throws the ball into center field. R3 (re)tags second and ends up at third and your going to call him out? I know I'd have trouble doing that.

The only way I have an out on that play is if defense tags second base when the ball comes in as the retag was not allowed and I would negate R3's attempt or if the defense makes another proper appeal I would allow it for the out. Other than that I have nothing. G

Ok, is it that the interpretation is for the minor leagues, or is it you don't approve of OBR used in non-OBR games?

Here's what Evans says about it: "Umpires should be alert and declare out any runner who should return to his
previous base after the pitcher has assumed his position on the rubber. This could most logically happen when the runner felt that he "left too soon" on a tag-up and
would attempt to return before an appeal was made on him."

Here's what J/R says about it: "Once a pitcher is in contact with the rubber a runner, regardless of purpose, cannot return beyond his occupied base. If he attempts to do so, he is declared out."

That's four authorities, all who say that a runner is out when he returns to a base after the pitcher is in position on the rubber: Fitzpatrick, Evans, Roder, Childress.

Can all four of us be wrong?

[Rich Ives]

Gee (and others interested)

The real way to handle the play for the offense is to have the runner break for home.

Outcomes:

1) Appeal is continued and runner out.

2) Appeal is broken off, play made on the runner, runner out.

3) Appeal is broken off, attempted play on runner, runner scores. Appeal killed by attempted play.

Given that the runner was a sure out on appeal, you might as well attempt to score. In youth ball, it even stands a good chance of working.

[Gee]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

The BRD section 419 carries an official interpretation from Mike Fitzpatrick, head of PBUC: If a runner tries to return to a previously occupied base after the pitcher has the ball on the pitcher's plate, the umpire will warn him. If he persists, he is out. Above all, the umpire must not permit the defense to play on the runner.

What can I say? I based my thinking on OBR 7.10
APPROVED RULING: (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

In this situation I have learned and I believe it was from you, that the umpire should not intervene if the runner does return and handle the situation as if he had not.

Somewhat of a conflict eh but I have been overuled by the masters and will concede. G.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Gee

What can I say? I based my thinking on OBR 7.10
APPROVED RULING: (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

In this situation I have learned and I believe it was from you, that the umpire should not intervene if the runner does return and handle the situation as if he had not.

Somewhat of a conflict eh but I have been overuled by the masters and will concede. G.

Sorry, you didn't learn it from me. Apparently, you didn't learn it at all. (grin)

[Gee]

So your saying the applicable action that applies to OBR 7.01 also applies to OBR 7.10(AR#2)? News to me. G.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Gee
So your saying the applicable action that applies to OBR 7.01 also applies to OBR 7.10(AR#2)? News to me. G.

Gee, what I'm saying is not difficult to comprehend: If a runner tries to return to a base after the pitcher has the ball on the rubber, the umpire should warn him to go back. If he doesn't, he's out.

What part of that doesn't compute?

Let's say the defense plans an appeal, and the offense initiates an action that causes the defense to make a play. Now the defense can no longer appeal.

I don't think that's right.

But it's the rule in OBR.

The RULE about not returning after the pitcher has the ball on the rubber is ALSO in the book.

Sigh!

[Brad]

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