Getting It Right - Your Thoughts?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I have worked baseball for many years and have never had an appeal WITHOUT a coach or player requesting it.

You can disagree all you want. You are alone.

I would get a refund from whatever school taught you how to umpire.

WCB:

I don't know who "you" is since you didn't quote any material. But if your statement is true -- and you always wait for an appeal -- you're not keeping up with PBUC mechanics.

There are two possibilities:

On a wild pitch where the half swing may be called a third strike with the batter becoming a batter-runner, the umpire crew may:

(a) have the plate umpire ask for help immediately without waiting for the catcher/coach to appeal his call of "No, he didn't go"; OR

(b) direct the appropriate base umpire to say "Yes, he went" (if he judged the half swing was a strike) without waiting for the plate umpire to appeal.

Advanced pro crews use (b); in my association, we use (a).

The MLBUM, which you are fond of quoting, has similar mechanics, but without giving the crew a choice of (a) or (b):

8.7 In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

Now, if your comment "never appealed without a request" refers to your never asking for help because you were blocked, then I suggest that's an even worse scenario: EVERYBODY gets blocked on the half swing now and again.

As to whether the appeal must be granted: Your "rule of thumb" (don't ask me if I'm inside) also doesn't take into account current PBUC mechanics.

In the three-man system, for example, the plate umpire is directed to ask the umpire on the line for the appeal without reference to the handedness of the batter. The umpire in your crew shouldn't have a choice because when he's inside, no appeals should be directed at him.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Oct 21st, 2004 at 05:54 PM]

[gsf23]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I asked for help just this past season. I was the PU and there was a pitch in near the dirt. I obviously did not see if the catcher catch the ball (neither did the batter) and the batter took off for first. There was a runner on second base and the runner advanced to 3rd. The batter was safe at first because of a bad throw not caught. My partner immediately starting walking toward me (This is a D1 Umpire that worked a State Final this year). He gave me a signal as well that we talked about in the pregame that is commonly used in these parts. I went to him immediately and got help. He said that the ball was caught and I ruled the batter out. The coach came out only to complain that the runner on that was on second base and advanced to third should return. We explained to the coach this was a live ball and runners could advance at their own risk. The coach went right back to the dugout without further discussion.

Thanks for the example, but now, if your partner had not given you the signal or been walking towards you like that, would you have gone to him on your own to get the help, or would someone have had to question your call to get you to do that?

Originally posted by JRutledge
I know I do not care if a player thinks he was not tagged or his foot was on the base if I am in good position to see the entire play. I will ask when I do not have a really good angle or know my partner is watching on obvious plays, but I do not ask for help or want help based on what a coach does. Sorry, it does not.

But the question is, if you did not get that good angle, and no one questioned the call, would you still go to your partner to get help?

I'm sorry but I have never once seen an umpire make a call, then call time, confer with his partner and then change the call without anyone asking.

[quote] And it is my opinion that I can use my judgment and decide when I need help or should give help. Sorry, but coaches are not the barometer of that decision making process. Coaches ask for help on basic plays (like a tag play at second base); I am not doing that when the request is stupid and dumb to being with.
[/Qoute]

Can you please quote anyone that says you should get help on those plays. Again, no one is saying that you go to get help everytime a coach comes out. What some of us are trying to say is that when you do go to get help, generally it is because someone has a problem with the original call.

[JRutledge]

gsf23,

You can ask this question 50 ways if you like. The answer is still going to be the same. If there is an obvious mistake like the ball being dropped and everyone sees the ball lying on the ground, yes I will provide help. And the coach does not have to be the catalyst to get that help. The coach plays no part in what I do on the field. It might be good for laughs and giggles, but the coach is not the reason I would give help on "obvious" plays.

Peace

[Atl Blue]

And you wonder why your credibility is shot?

Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 01:53 PM:
My first question to you is do you have the reference to FED or NCAA Rules?
Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 04:34 PM
I did not ask for anything, I was just making a point that I do not work OBR rules.
Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 03:09 PM,
I see you have not ever picked up a FED Rulebook. You cannot protest a game in FED Rules
Posted by JR at Oct 21st, 2004 04:34 PM
I should have just said it was not allowed in my state. FED rules are local for the most part.

(Actually, FED rules are national with certain options. Yes, states adapt them, but the rules themselves are NATIONAL. That's why they are published by the NATIONAL High School Federation).

A great example is those states that do not allow any other bats except for wood.

(And what states would that be?)

If you want the coach to play you like a fiddle and every disagreement he asks for an appeal, you go and do that

Where in the world did Windy, Sal, myself or ANYONE else on this board EVER suggest this? Good grief, man, all of us have worked at least the D-1 level (Windy claims higher, that's between you and him, I don't care). Do you think ANY of us would have made it to that level if we let every coach's gripe of a banger at first turn into an appeal? Do you honestly believe that we would have made it to that level if every coach "played us like a fiddle"? Please assume we have SOME sense, as do our assignors.

We are discussing checked swings (where in OBR AND NCAA rules, you MUST check, contrary to your view of NCAA rules as stated earlier). We are discussing plays such as the A-Rod interference type of call. We are discussing the HR/GRD call like the other night. We are discussing calls where your partner may have information that could help you, but he is not about to step on your call.

Wake up and get a clue. I'm tired of trying to lead the blind here. A lot of people with a lot of experience tried to give you advice to help make you a better ump. But you know better than all of us so you tell the world how you are right and how every other more experienced umpire is wrong. I'll call Dave Yeast and see if I can get you on the speaker's list for the NCAA Rules Clinics in January. I'm sure ALL of the NCAA umps would like some more of this wisdom. Or maybe you could come work the Southern Umpires clinic in February. We could always use comic relief.

And when Tony Thompson calls with games for me next spring, I'll tell him he needs to bring JR in from Illinois, because he knows MUCH better than do any of the umps in his association when to ignore a coach and not grant an appeal.

But you did say something that was VERY true:

I will never work a game with you

And I thank God for that.




(Gee, I've been driven to sounding like Windy. To everyone else, sorry!)

[mick]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Atl Blue
And you wonder why your credibility is shot?

If my credibility was shot, I would not be an elected official in the associations I belong. I would not be on the verge of the possibly being an IHSA Clinician and I certainly would not have worked all the levels that I do in all my sports. I also would not be able to speak at every IACAO clinic (which was featured as the model for all clinics by the NF) in all my sports. Now everything I am telling you can be very easily confirmed and is not a generalization.

We have gone round and round about this issue and if you choose to continue you will do it by yourself. But I have been very successful as an official in all my sports and especially as an umpire. You used all these silly examples and stated your position. Who really cares what the hell you think, I sure do not. I am not letting a coach dictate to me what I know is best. I have learned there are a lot of guidelines that people use to make decisions. You can be a rulebook official or you can use common sense and know when you need help or do not need help. I just watched a play in the NLCS that might have been wrong, I did not see the 1st base umpire ask for help of any umpire and LaRussa was out and argued a little on the play. The umpire might have been screened, but you see he stuck with his call.

So ATL Blue, if that is what the do in Georgia good for you. I will not really think much about baseball after this World Series and I will not be concerned about your opinion or anyone else's opinion as it relates to this issue when the spring comes. Do what you feel is best and my "credibility" will be intact with the people that matter. And they do not apply to people like you on the internet.

Peace

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You are right about what we do with two men crews. However, I have long crewed with guys on our three man crews that say, "If I'm inside (B/C), don't come to me." personally, I think that I can make the call, but these guys are pretty awesome and I've picked up that habit. 99% of the time we will be in the position to ask for and receive the appeal.

I have never understood this "mechanic". WHY should you not want the PU to come to you inside? If you didn't CLEARLY see a swing, you rule: "No, he didn't", right? You are agreeing with the PU, and what's the problem? If, however, your partner somehow gets screened and even from B/C you can clearly see that the batter offered, you "get it right" AND ring up another strike.
Like someone else posted, both of these outcomes are good things.

[johnSandlin]

Even if as an umpire, you do not get the angle and you miss the call, but nobody lodges a complaint about it, then yes you are going to leave it alone.

However, I think both Jim Joyce and Randy Marsh absolutely did the 100% correct thing after Terry F(Boston's Manager) lodged his complaints on the two original calls. Both of them (Joyce and Marsh) put their ego's aside and went to their other crew members to get call the right no matter what Yankee fans and players would think of them.

In today's world whether umpiring at the MLB all the way down the high school level, umpires are taking a more proactive approach at getting calls right even if it means changing the original call.

Players play too hard and coaches coach too hard to not deserve this type of umpiring by all of us as umpires.

GREAT JOB ALCS UMPIRING CREW!!!!

[WindyCityBlue]

Papa C.,
That was well put, as expected. I didn't realize that you were responding to my posts again, but welcome.

I actually work Minor League baseball. I can only tell you what mechanic that is being taught to us here and at the major college level.

As I said, I work with multiple NCAA crews, depending on the conference. On one crew, we NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B. I feel that I can make the call from that angle, but I've deferred to their experience. In that conference, we have a couple of coaches that go apesh*t when that call gets made from that angle.

For the majority of my games, I will go to the applicable official for the check swing appeal. However, I can't recall the last time that I asked for the appeal without a coach or layer prompt. It's not that I'm better or never get screened, it's just that if I do, I was taught that if you don't see a strike, you call ball. Then they appeal. I work hard to insure that this doesn't happen, but have never had a coach complain about the mechanic. they understand that they are entitled to the appeal in that situation and aware that I resepct them enough to grant it. Now, if it ever happens when my partners are in B or C...

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Papa C.,
That was well put, as expected. I didn't realize that you were responding to my posts again, but welcome.

I actually work Minor League baseball. I can only tell you what mechanic that is being taught to us here and at the major college level.

As I said, I work with multiple NCAA crews, depending on the conference. On one crew, we NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B.

WCB:

Unless you work in an unaffiliated minor league, I believe your comment about how you handle half swings is disingenuous. I know Mike Fitzpatrick, and I know his evaluators enforce the PBUC mechanics, one of which I quoted in my orignal post.

You say that some NCAA coaches go berserk when the plate umpire checks with an umpire inside the diamond. On the one crew, where you "NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B," if I were one of the NCAA coaches and you refused to check, I would protest the game, citing 3-6e: "When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must [my emphasis] seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire ragarding the 'checked swing.'" Whether it was a check swing is judgment; whether you refused to ask is evidence of a blatant disregard of black letter law.

After the protest, which I would win assuming I lost the game, I would call the conference supervisor and be sure you never worked one of my games again: "Hey, Tommy, can you believe it? They just wouldn't appeal when I asked. Say, who are those guys? Did they come in on a turnip truck or what? I know it's hard to find enough warm bodies these days, but...."

Finally, why not adopt the PBUC guideline and ignore whether U3 is in C or U1 is in B? Ask the umpire on the line, whichever side B1 is hitting from.

BTW: Did you know that I invented the names of the positions? I'm surprised to see you, a "professional umpire" using them since the professional schools have studiously avoided those labels.

Instead of saying "Go to B with a runner on first," they prefer: "Move into the infield on the right side of the diamond, station yourself on a line between the plate, the skin of the mound, and the outfield, and stand perhaps 15 to 20 feet behind the rubber."

When I trained umpires for a PONY league, I got tired of the latter and switch to the former. Life is so much better now.

[WindyCityBlue]

Because of the length of your reply, I will respond to each thought or query. I will attempt to be brief.

Papa C.:
Unless you work in an unaffiliated minor league, I believe your comment about how you handle half swings is disingenuous. I know Mike Fitzpatrick, and I know his evaluators enforce the PBUC mechanics, one of which I quoted in my orignal (sp) post.

WCB:
I have spent the last few years working for several independent leagues. When I graduated from pro school, we were still using the UDP system, but I am very familiar with the PBUC format and materials. I mentioned that only as a retort to your implication that I was unaware of what is being done in professional ball. The rest of my reply dealt with NCAA mechanics.

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Papa C:
You say that some NCAA coaches go berserk when the plate umpire checks with an umpire inside the diamond. On the one crew, where you "NEVER grant the appeal when my 3BU is in C or my 1BU is in B," if I were one of the NCAA coaches and you refused to check, I would protest the game, citing 3-6e: "When asked by a coach or player, the plate umpire must [my emphasis] seek a decision from the appropriate base umpire ragarding (sp) the 'checked swing.'" Whether it was a check swing is judgment; whether you refused to ask is evidence of a blatant disregard of black letter law.

WCB:
Most of the coaches I see recognize that the call is not the same from that angle. They love it when it helps them and hate it when it is called against them. “C’mon, he doesn’t have the angle there.’ is the usual reply. We’ve adapted to their concerns, not the other way around. They also know that a lot of crews will have an unwritten rule, “If you are in B or C, agree with me, that way they have nothing to ***** about.” I have no problem granting the appeal, but I’m the junior man on these crews and like working there.

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Papa C.:
After the protest, which I would win assuming I lost the game, I would call the conference supervisor and be sure you never worked one of my games again: "Hey, Tommy, can you believe it? They just wouldn't appeal when I asked. Say, who are those guys? Did they come in on a turnip truck or what? I know it's hard to find enough warm bodies these days, but...."

WCB:
“Hello, Conference Officiating Director here. Coach, I hear you...but, you’ve only been here one year. I’ve seen this crew work dozens of times and they are the second rated crew in our conference. I know that you think they should appeal that swing, but you know how umpires are. They probably talked in the locker room and have a contingency for coaches that ask for that call. Uh, huh...the rule book states that. Yep, no argument here. Did you lose the game? Uh, huh...did that call affect the outcome of the game. Oh, you lost 14-2. Your appeal is denied, but I’ll call the crew chief and alert him to your concerns. Good luck coach. I’ll talk to you after your next loss.” CLICK

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Papa C.:
Finally, why not adopt the PBUC guideline and ignore whether U3 is in C or U1 is in B? Ask the umpire on the line, whichever side B1 is hitting from.

WCB:
Because this is the NCAA. They tend to frown upon novel mechanics.

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Papa C.:
BTW: Did you know that I invented the names of the positions? I'm surprised to see you, a "professional umpire" using them since the professional schools have studiously avoided those labels.

WCB:
In an effort to avoid another war, I will refrain from the easiest of retorts.
Instead, I will say that I use the same vernacular that the membership uses.
I am not writing for my enlightenment or to receive accolades. I provide information and make every effort to explain in it ways that the rookie or veteran can understand.

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Papa C.:
Instead of saying "Go to B with a runner on first," they prefer: "Move into the infield on the right side of the diamond, station yourself on a line between the plate, the skin of the mound, and the outfield, and stand perhaps 15 to 20 feet behind the rubber."

WCB:
I have only offered advice from my experience. If you have coaches that allow that call, then your job at the plate is considerably easier. If you read carefully what I have ascribed, I recognize the rule and have not dismissed it. I have simply said what is expected from us in these levels.

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Papa C:
When I trained umpires for a PONY league, I got tired of the latter and switch to the former. Life is so much better now.

WCB:
I donÂ’t teach as many clinics as you. But, I am an instructor at multiple clinics across the country - teaching everything from NCAA mechanics to showing 14 year olds how to hold an outside protector. My attitude is pretty much the same for all. Demonstrate the accepted mechanic, explain what variations exist and permit them to find the method that works best for them. Most will adopt the professional ways, but the ones that teach me and gain my respect are those that find another way that works. The mechanic we use for check swing appeals works in our leagues. ItÂ’s really that simple.

[gordon30307]

Hey Windy,

I assume your're in the Chicago area. Two Independent Leagues operate here. Frontier and Northern. Have you worked either one? Who have you worked with in these leagues? I don't do these games but I know a few guys that do. I don't think I know you though. Just curious.

[WindyCityBlue]

If you've been to games at Alexian you've seen me many times. I've also worked in Crestwood, Joliet and The Quad Cities.

Any more help than that and I'll hand my resume to the officiating god from Wheaton .

[GarthB]

This may be enough. I have a friend who spent seven years in the Northern League. He self-released three years ago.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
If you've been to games at Alexian you've seen me many times. I've also worked in Crestwood, Joliet and The Quad Cities.

Any more help than that and I'll hand my resume to the officiating god from Wheaton .

I've never been to a Northern League Game so I couldn't have seen you. I know a few guys that worked there last season. Who did you work with? Also in a response to Papa C you mentioned "you were on the second ranked crew in the conference." Just curious what conference was that?