Joe West's Illegal Pitch call in the Cards/Pirates game

[Lapopez]

In these "don't do that" situations, do you allow the pitch and warn after or negate the pitch immediately? If you allow the pitch, do you call the pitch a ball or strike as the case may be? What if a hit follows the pitch?

[Tim C]

I asked this question (and another like it) to Mike Winters, Gary Darling, Dale Scott at a clinic. I also asked Rick Roder the same question through the WUA website.

All agree, as soon as the umpire comes out with a "don't do that" type call (actually the proper mechanic is, "TIME, don't do that!") the ball is an immedaite dead ball and nothing happens with that pitch.

As an associated question I also asked the same people about what happens when the plate umpire directs the pitcher to pitch (such as when a batter is slow to enter the batter's box) and if it is a "Live Ball" and can the batter jump in and hit the pitch?

After several go arounds where there was a large disagreement amoung the umpires listed Roder stated that MLB policy is that the action is actually a "directed strike" and that the batter may not, under any circumstances, re-enter the box and hit the pitch.

I hope this answers your question with enough authoritative opinions as it is not written in black and white in the rule book.

Tee

[ump3]

"As Jim Evans states in Baseball Rules Annotated, "Today's rule delineates between illegal pitches and illegal acts by the pitcher. Penalties for these various infractions can be found in 2.00 Illegal Pitch, 8.01(d), 8.02(a) Penalty, and 8.05(e) Penalty."

The infraction under discussion in this thread would be a balk with runners on, but with no runners it is simply an illegal act, penalized by warning to cease and desist, followed by ejection for failure to heed the warning."

Harry Wendelstedt agrees: In his school manual, he also says. ". . . Pitcher's violations are broken down into three categories- Balks, Illegal Pitches (which may qualify as a balk), and "Time! Don't do that"'s"

Under the 2nd category {illegal pitches} that he lists, is ". . . ONLY when a pitcher (1) delivers a pitch to the batter while not in contact with the pitcher's plate, or (2) makes a Quick Pitch."

And to clarify an above post about the pitcher that does not stop in the Set with no runners on, also using the Wendelstedt Manual; "A Quick Pitch ONLY is one that the pitcher either (1) from behind or beside the pitcher's plate, quickly steps on the rubber, and immediately throws a pitch, or (2) delivers a pitch to the batter when the batter is not facing him. . . A Quick Pitch should rarely be called in case #2 as the umpire should usually prevent this by calling "Time" when the pitcher begins to pitch, if he believes the batter is not properly adjusted. This may occur though in the situation where the pitcher is delivering from the Wind-Up position, but does not go through the "Wind-Up", but merely steps and throws home. . . There is certainly a difference between a Quick Pitch, and pitching quickly."

Under the 3rd category {Time! Don't do that"'s} that he lists, ". . . when a pitcher, with no runners on, stops his motion to deliver a pitch. . . in some instances an umpire may need to add "and anymore, you'll be ejected"."

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by ump3
"As Jim Evans states in Baseball Rules Annotated, "Today's rule delineates between illegal pitches and illegal acts by the pitcher. Penalties for these various infractions can be found in 2.00 Illegal Pitch, 8.01(d), 8.02(a) Penalty, and 8.05(e) Penalty."

The infraction under discussion in this thread would be a balk with runners on, but with no runners it is simply an illegal act, penalized by warning to cease and desist, followed by ejection for failure to heed the warning."

Harry Wendelstedt agrees: In his school manual, he also says. ". . . Pitcher's violations are broken down into three categories- Balks, Illegal Pitches (which may qualify as a balk), and "Time! Don't do that"'s"

Under the 2nd category {illegal pitches} that he lists, is ". . . ONLY when a pitcher (1) delivers a pitch to the batter while not in contact with the pitcher's plate, or (2) makes a Quick Pitch."

And to clarify an above post about the pitcher that does not stop in the Set with no runners on, also using the Wendelstedt Manual; "A Quick Pitch ONLY is one that the pitcher either (1) from behind or beside the pitcher's plate, quickly steps on the rubber, and immediately throws a pitch, or (2) delivers a pitch to the batter when the batter is not facing him. . . A Quick Pitch should rarely be called in case #2 as the umpire should usually prevent this by calling "Time" when the pitcher begins to pitch, if he believes the batter is not properly adjusted. This may occur though in the situation where the pitcher is delivering from the Wind-Up position, but does not go through the "Wind-Up", but merely steps and throws home. . . There is certainly a difference between a Quick Pitch, and pitching quickly."

Under the 3rd category {Time! Don't do that"'s} that he lists, ". . . when a pitcher, with no runners on, stops his motion to deliver a pitch. . . in some instances an umpire may need to add "and anymore, you'll be ejected"."

Does this Harry guy actually work baseball?

(just kidding, thanks for the additional references)

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by Tim C


I hope this answers your question with enough authoritative opinions as it is not written in black and white in the rule book.

Tee

Excellently. Thanks all.

[Tim C]

But the real question is:

Does my friend DownTown agree with any of this yet?

Tee

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Sorry, I've got a little crow stuck in my throat.

I still don't think the rule book is clear enough and, after thoroughly reading the concerned rules, I wouldn't have argued (obviously I didn't) the same interpretation as several here have stated.

I am still keeping up with the thread and appreciate the numerous responses.

I completely agree with Evans' statement concerning the separation of "illegal pitches and illegal acts" but contrary to the general consensus, I feel that stated difference addresses the separation of rule 8.01 (how to legally deliver a pitch) from rule 8.02 (illegal acts such as defacing the ball). Based upon my very limited experiences, my understanding of the spirit of the game, and my reading abilities, I would not have arrived at the interpretation that many of you have... including apparently Wendelstedt. Of course I do live in a vacuum... or Idaho, I mean. We're not quite the baseball Mecca of the world.

I can rule appropriately in the future. My appologies to you Mr. Hensley; at the time I felt correct in what I was saying and voiced it rather strongly. I meant no personal effrontery.

I obviously need to gain a little more knowledge than just the rule book. Recommendations for additions to my baseball library will be gladly accepted. You can reply to this thread or send them to my personal email as listed in my profile.

All is well.
Tony

[Jeremiah]

"As an associated question I also asked the same people about what happens when the plate umpire directs the pitcher to pitch (such as when a batter is slow to enter the batter's box) and if it is a "Live Ball" and can the batter jump in and hit the pitch?

After several go arounds where there was a large disagreement amoung the umpires listed Roder stated that MLB policy is that the action is actually a "directed strike" and that the batter may not, under any circumstances, re-enter the box and hit the pitch."

I can see there are disagreements. I can remember when Angel Hernandez told the pitcher to pitch when Bobby Higginson didn't enter the box. Bobby came running in and connected for a base-hit. Nothing said.

And Roder does clearly state that it's illegal to enter the box once the pitcher is instructed to pitch without the batter.

-Jeremiah