Force Play?

[Dave Reed]

Originally posted by Gee
One reason it is not called a force at first is the fact that when a runner passes any base including home he has removed the force (Where applicable). So take the classic play with an R3 and an R1, two outs.

Batter singles, R3 scores, R1 fails to touch second in passing, stops immediately and tries to scramble back but is tagged out before he gets back.

Ruling: Score the run, R1 removed the FORCE and was put out for an off base out.

Take a similar situation at first with an R3 and an R1 with two outs. Batter singles, R3 scores, B/R fails to touch first in running THROUGH the base, he stops immediately after passing and is tagged out before he returns. B/R was tagged out before touching first for the third out.

Ruling: Don't score the run. Couldn't remove the force as there is no force there. If the B/R made the turn at first and was tagged out, the run would score. There is a reason for everything. G.

Gee,
The scoring or not scoring the run is same whether we consider B/R to be forced at first or not. In your second scenario, even if a putative force on B/R is removed when he passes first base, the run isn't scored unless he touches the base safely. Rule 4.09 (a) (1) says so.
There may indeed be a reason to conclude that B/R isn't forced at first, but this isn't it.

By the way, can you point me to an elucidation of the principle that passing a base removes the force? I'd like to understand what happens in your first scenario if R1 continues to third and is called out on appeal.

Dave

[Gee]

You wrote,

The scoring or not scoring the run is same whether we consider B/R to be forced at first or not.
------------------------------
First let me answer your question about removing the force.

As we all know, the force is removed when a runner touches the base he was forced to. When a runner fails to touch his forced base in passing he is assumed to have touched that base, which of course removes the force, pending appeal. OBR 6.08(c),7.04(d) and 8.05 AR.

So in the play at second, once the runner passed the base he failed to touch, he is assumed to have touched it and removed the force, therefore the run scores.

At first when the runner failed to touch first, when running through (still passing), he didn't remove the TOUCH and when tagged out the run doesn't score because the runner didn't TOUCH first before he was tagged out. OBR 4.09(a). There is a difference.

You further asked:

"I'd like to understand what happens in your first scenario if R1 continues to third and is called out on appeal".
--------------
Once the runner leaves the immediate area of the base (I use the cutout) he can be appealed. OBR 7.10(d) extended to all bases.

If he is succesfully appealed the force out would be restored and the run wouldn't score. That is why I clearly stated that the runner stopped immediately and scrambled back and couldn't be appealed and must be tagged for an off base out, since he never left the immediate area of the base, again OBR 7.10(d)

Prior to the middle seventies they used OBR 7.10(b) which entails touching the bases out of order. Under that rule the runner that failed to touch second in passing was not appealable until he touched his advance base.

They extended 7.10(d) to all bases because 7.10(b) and (d) were out of sinc and now they are closer and there is no reason to use (b) at this time although it is still there and can be used if applicable. Hope you understand all that. G.

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[Edited by Gee on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 01:32 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gee
At first when the runner failed to touch first, when running through (still passing), he didn't remove the TOUCH and when tagged out the run doesn't score because the runner didn't TOUCH first before he was tagged out. OBR 4.09(a). There is a difference.

[Edited by Gee on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 01:32 PM]

There's no practical difference. BR is assumed to touch first when he passes it. The tag results in an out if it's an appeal -- it's the same as the "reinstating the force" example you provide when R1 misses 2nd and is appealed for the out.

[Gee]

"SNIP"

There's no practical difference. BR is assumed to touch first when he passes it. The tag results in an out if it's an appeal -- it's the same as the "reinstating the force" example you provide when R1 misses 2nd and is appealed for the out.
------------------------

I just don't see it that way Bob.

I purposely said that in both situations the B/R and runner stopped immediately after failing to touch the base and scrambled back.

With that said, when the runner at first failed to touch the base in passing and was tagged out before his immediate return, it's an appeal play and since there is no force play at first he is out for not TOUCHING the base before he is put out. Since a run cannot score when the B/R is put out before TOUCHING first base, don't score the run.

At second when the runner failed to touch the base in passing and was tagged out on his immediate return he has lifted the force and must be tagged with no appeal allowed, ever, therefore score the run.

Two plays almost exactly the sames but according to the rules one scores and one doesn't. Isn't that difference due to no force play at first. I think it is. Regards G.

[Edited by Gee on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 04:19 PM]

[teacherspit]

Gentlemen I know in ASA that the second a BR stops and steps backwards he is called out. I like that rule. I know that baseball does not have that rule. But as Bob said it is an umpires judgement and there are ways to call a BR out backtracking to home.

[Atl Blue]

and there are ways to call a BR out backtracking to home.

As long as he stays in the baseline, what are they?

[teacherspit]

Making a travesty of the game for one.

REVERSE BASE RUNNING RULE MYTH
In order to correct a base running mistake, the runner MUST retrace his steps and retouch the bases in reverse order. The only time a runner is out for running in reverse, is when he is making a travesty of the game or tries to confuse the defense.

Rules: 7.08(I), 7.10(b)


Your judgement!

[Edited by teacherspit on Jul 24th, 2004 at 12:50 PM]

[Gee]

Would you call this situation making a travesty of the game?

R1, no outs. Batter bunts down the first base line a little to hard, F3 comes in, fields the ball and starts running toward B/R for a tag out and a possible reverse double play at second. B/R backpeddles to give R1 time to reach second.

With your rule F3 sees B/R step back, knowing he is going to be called out he and fires to second for the double play. Might work in softball but not in Baseball.

If the B/R backtracks to the plate he is called out but until then he is fine. G.

[Edited by Gee on Jul 24th, 2004 at 12:54 PM]

[teacherspit]

Gee,
In my oppinion the BR has abandoned his run to First. And the fielder need not wait until he tags to make the throw to second. And futher more, that the first baseman choose to go after the BR knowing that he has to run to first is even more reason to call the BR out.
I can't see, and this is feasible, the first baseman running the BR back to home. At some point you have to stop it. It is not smart baserunning. I will call it a travesty whether you agree or not.

Not everyone interpets the Rules the same. The application of the rules for the most part is left up to the discretion of the umpire. We are not machines. Nor should we act like ones.

And your point about Softball and Baseball, so what, they are both games that require baserunning. I was just pointing out how ASA has simplfied that situation. And I like it. It makes it a lot easier on the fielders and umps.

[Gee]

The only way you could call a runner out for abandonment when he has never left his baseline is to have the calling umpire make a travesty of the rules. G.

[Atl Blue]

In my oppinion the BR has abandoned his run to First.

So any runner that gets caught in a rundown has abandoned his effort to advance? And oh yeah, the abandonment rule says "leaves the baseline". Last time I checked the baseline went from home to first, AND from first to home.

And the fielder need not wait until he tags to make the throw to second.

Correct, but if he doesn't tag the BR or the base, he is risking getting at least one out. The BR backing up like this is SMART baserunning.

And futher more, that the first baseman choose to go after the BR knowing that he has to run to first is even more reason to call the BR out.

No, it's even more reason not to reward the stupidity of the F3. There is no reason for him to chase BR, but if he does, I'm not rewarding stupidity.

I can't see, and this is feasible, the first baseman running the BR back to home. At some point you have to stop it.

Exactly, when the BR reveses course all the way to HP, it will be stopped.

It is not smart baserunning.

It may be VERY smart baserunning. If the BR can interest F3 in chasing him long enough, other base runners are going to advance. That is often called a sacrifice, depending on if he was giving himself up on purpose.

Do you think ANY base runner that gets into a pickle should be out for "making a travesty of the game"? What if the runner is forced. Example, 1, out R1 and R3, ground ball to F4. F4 reaches out to tag the passing R1, but R1 backs up, all the way to 1B if he wants to, in order to keep F4 from tagging him, and thus "breaking up" the DP, so now the run scores. Why is F4 backing up in this case any different than the BR backing up to avoid a tag? F4 was forced, he was dead meat, all he was doing was prolonging the play and making F4 work harder for the out. Perfectly legal, AND smart baserunning.

I will call it a travesty whether you agree or not.

Don't count on any upper level games with this kind of absurd call. Any good coach or ump will laugh you out of the park. Next upper level clinic you attend, bring up that you would call this a travesty and call the BR out. You'll just LOVE the reaction from the instructors and other umps on that one!

[teacherspit]

What is your diffinition of upper level?

And who cares about upper level? I sure don't.
You nick pickers are something else.
I bet y'all say one thing and then when you get on the field you do something else.
I don't appreciate personally being attacked on my views. EX: telling me someone is going to laugh me out of a room. If I am wrong so be it. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean you have to attack me.

Oh by the way, "In my judgement he abandoned the base" What are you going to do? Protest?
And if I want to call it a "Making a Travesty of the Game", Who is to say it isn't? It an umpire's judgement.
This is the most subjective objective team sport ever.

I have no quorums as to how I call a game. I am confident in my application of the rules.
If I tell both coaches that their pitcher has to step off the rubber before throwing to a base to make an appeal. That pitcher better step off the rubber. Whether you agree or not. Both teams know it so I don't see the problem.

What I have read in this forum so far for the most part pretty good information.
But what I have also seen is that there are a small few whom have taken it upon themselves to have a closed mine on other umpires interpentations of the Rules. And ridicule any whom oppose.
Heck, most everyone that reads the Bible has a different interpretation. So why not a simple Base Ball Rule Book?

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by teacherspit
Oh by the way, "In my judgement he abandoned the base" What are you going to do? Protest?
And if I want to call it a "Making a Travesty of the Game", Who is to say it isn't? It an umpire's judgement.
This is the most subjective objective team sport ever.

Actually, yes, I will protest. Because it is a RULES question, not a judgment call. Simply putting "In my judgment .. " in front of what ever travesty of "umpiring" you are about to give voice to does not make it a judgment call. If your Board/UIC/Protest Committee has the brains and/or the balls which the creator supplied to little white mice, my protest will be upheld, too.

Originally posted by teacherspit
I have no quorums as to how I call a game. I am confident in my application of the rules.
If I tell both coaches that their pitcher has to step off the rubber before throwing to a base to make an appeal. That pitcher better step off the rubber. Whether you agree or not. Both teams know it so I don't see the problem.

Here's the problem: you are confidently MAKING UP RULES to suit yourself. This reflects badly on all umpires, and I bet you could find several quorums of upper level umpires on this board and elsewhere to tell you you should cut it out. The next guy to come along after you has to deal with the s#!%house YOU created when he simply follows the CORRECT rule(s) which you ignored and doesn't use your dumba$$ invented "rule", which you have convinced the poor kids and their clueless Coach is "The Rule". It is hard enough to keep the various codes straight ourselves, and to calm down summer league coaches who expect us to call the HS rule (because that is the best level of amateur ball [& umpiring] they are used to seeing), without adding the grief caused by ad-hoc "umpires" like yourself and the 9.01(c) addicts.

Your problem is not the stuff you don't know [which is a whole lot], but all the stuff you "know" that is just dead WRONG.

[Rich]

Originally posted by teacherspit
Making a travesty of the game for one.

REVERSE BASE RUNNING RULE MYTH
In order to correct a base running mistake, the runner MUST retrace his steps and retouch the bases in reverse order. The only time a runner is out for running in reverse, is when he is making a travesty of the game or tries to confuse the defense.

Rules: 7.08(I), 7.10(b)


Your judgement!

[Edited by teacherspit on Jul 24th, 2004 at 12:50 PM]

You gotta be kidding.

[David B]

Originally posted by teacherspit
What is your diffinition of upper level?

And who cares about upper level? I sure don't.
You nick pickers are something else.
I bet y'all say one thing and then when you get on the field you do something else.
I don't appreciate personally being attacked on my views. EX: telling me someone is going to laugh me out of a room. If I am wrong so be it. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean you have to attack me.

Oh by the way, "In my judgement he abandoned the base" What are you going to do? Protest?
And if I want to call it a "Making a Travesty of the Game", Who is to say it isn't? It an umpire's judgement.
This is the most subjective objective team sport ever.

I have no quorums as to how I call a game. I am confident in my application of the rules.
If I tell both coaches that their pitcher has to step off the rubber before throwing to a base to make an appeal. That pitcher better step off the rubber. Whether you agree or not. Both teams know it so I don't see the problem.

What I have read in this forum so far for the most part pretty good information.
But what I have also seen is that there are a small few whom have taken it upon themselves to have a closed mine on other umpires interpentations of the Rules. And ridicule any whom oppose.
Heck, most everyone that reads the Bible has a different interpretation. So why not a simple Base Ball Rule Book?

I had to laugh. A simple Rule Book - NOT. Because this is not a simple game. Surely umpires can make it hard, but there is a lot to the game of baseball.

But, using common sense will get you a long way in umpiring. Calling a runner out when there is no rule for it is NOT using common sense. Think about it.

And for an umpire to make up a rule saying he abandoned or made a travesty, that's even worse than missing the call.

This forum can be a great help, but you have to be willing to get the book out and search. Don't discount the many many hours that many of us put into the rules weekly to be better umpires.

thanks
David