Should You Lie To Fix A Missed Call?

Blue37 · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 10:02am

Yesterday at church, a friend - Joe - came to me with an interesting situation that arose in a game on Saturday. Joe is on the dish in a two man crew. R1, no outs. Ground ball to second, flip to short for the out, relay to first, bang-bang play, out is called. Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe.

The coach came out to discuss the call and the base ump called Joe over and said "I missed that one. Say that the 1st baseman was off the bag so we can get it right." Joe told me the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definately in contact with the bag when the throw was received.

Would you lie in that situation to cover for your partner?

Gee · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 10:22am

Why lie? If the base ump felt the runner beat the play and the plate ump felt the runner beat the play and they have a conference I wouldn't have a problem agreeing with the base ump.

I wouldn't lie about the pulled foot nor would I bring it up. Let the base ump change the call to safe and go on from there after HE ejects the defensive manager. G.

ozzy6900 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 10:26am

Oh my God! First we want to "discuss everything" then "get the call right". Now we want to know if we should lie to do it? The discussions latley have me wondering if there is a sudden swing from being umpires to being politicians!

Call what you see!

Blue37 · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 11:03am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gee
Why lie? If the base ump felt the runner beat the play and the plate ump felt the runner beat the play and they have a conference I wouldn't have a problem agreeing with the base ump.

I wouldn't lie about the pulled foot nor would I bring it up. Let the base ump change the call to safe and go on from there after HE ejects the defensive manager. G.

Joe wouldn't lie either. The base ump would not publically admit he missed the call and was trying to put it off on the pulled foot. The double play stood.

rmstone · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 11:42am

Its a judgement call, get the coach off the field and play ball...

I argued in the other post that a pulled foot can and should be reviewed with other umpire (if the FU desides to), because in honesty the plate ump has the best view of the foot and the base... but the TIMING of an out/safe play should never be reviewed with the plate umpire... so I don't think this falls under the "get it right"...

Tell him to stick with his call, its a judgement call...

"Oh my God! First we want to "discuss everything" then "get the call right". Now we want to know if we should lie to do it? The discussions latley have me wondering if there is a sudden swing from being umpires to being politicians! "

You take this way too seriously...

ozzy6900 · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 11:46am

Quote:

Originally posted by rmstone
"Oh my God! First we want to "discuss everything" then "get the call right". Now we want to know if we should lie to do it? The discussions latley have me wondering if there is a sudden swing from being umpires to being politicians! "

You take this way too seriously...

Yes, I do take my job as an umpire seriously - for the last 20 years I've said if you can't take the 2 hours on the field seriously then you need to sell the equipment and become a spectator.

Ad Finitum

rmstone · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 12:04pm

The two hours on the field are important... going nuts in a message board on the internet isn't so important...

Also going nuts on people for what they do with their two hours on the field isn't the same thing either...

w_sohl · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 12:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rmstone
The two hours on the field are important... going nuts in a message board on the internet isn't so important...

Also going nuts on people for what they do with their two hours on the field isn't the same thing either...

When a legit questions come up on the board we should treat it as a rules test question. We want to get it exactly right. It is like the saying goes for players, you play how you practice, this is part of our practice here and we should take it seriously. I cuoldn't believe that someone was asking if it was OK to lie either. Just listen to how stupid that sounds, "Is it OK to lie?"

WindyCityBlue · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 03:25pm

Yes, you should lie when you blow a call.

You should tell them that you went to training and bought a rule book and read it and understand it and earned the patch you are wearing and deserve more money and love penalizing others for doing just what you describe.

I can't believe that I read this! Have a little pride. When is it ever okay to cheat the rules on a ball field?
Umpire the game like your pastor/rabbi/grandfather was in the crowd - watching you. Better, maybe someone has a video camera and we'll get to see you on "What were they thinking?" when the Bubba from the crowd pummels you for acting like an eight year old.

WindyCityBlue · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 04:26pm

Peter,

I don't think the irony was lost on any of us that know how to read.

WCB

Hey, I've got to do something to get my number of posts higher, otherwise I won't be taken seriously!

DG · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 10:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue37
Yesterday at church, a friend - Joe - came to me with an interesting situation that arose in a game on Saturday. Joe is on the dish in a two man crew. R1, no outs. Ground ball to second, flip to short for the out, relay to first, bang-bang play, out is called. Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe.

The coach came out to discuss the call and the base ump called Joe over and said "I missed that one. Say that the 1st baseman was off the bag so we can get it right." Joe told me the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definately in contact with the bag when the throw was received.

Would you lie in that situation to cover for your partner?

I will read the rest of the posts later, but respond first. Joe is PU. "Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe" and BU wanted him to say that he was off the bag so they can get it right, but then Joe told you "the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definitely in contact with the bag when the throw was received". Sounds like Joe, the PU, can't make up his mind.

Now if I am the PU and if my BU has just made an out call and wants to discuss it with me, because the manager is complaining, then I am going to tell my BU that I am not going to tell him what I thought I saw, because it is not relevant, and we are not going to change the call. We are going to tell the coach that after consultation we have decided it was a very close call and we will not be changing it. After our discussion the BU will also understand that if he wants help from me on this call he has to ask before he makes the call, and only if the ball beat the runner and he is unsure if 1B had his foot on the bag.

And if asked this question in church, I would have to say "never lie".

If asked this question on the ballfield, I would have to say "never lie".

If asked this question in a bar, I would have to say "never lie".

jumpmaster · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 28, 2004, 11:39pm

DG,
I think you are on the right track. A very smart man once told me that the measure of a man's character is what he does when he thinks no one is watching. I think the baseball parallel could be - the measure of an umpire's character is will he lie to fix a bad call.

and for what's it worth...that very smart man also told me that men who choose to use four letter words, do so because they are not intelligent enough to use others.

Blue37 · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 29, 2004, 07:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by DG
I will read the rest of the posts later, but respond first. Joe is PU. "Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe" and BU wanted him to say that he was off the bag so they can get it right, but then Joe told you "the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definitely in contact with the bag when the throw was received". Sounds like Joe, the PU, can't make up his mind.

[/B]

DG,

I apologize for giving any indication that Joe was indecisive. He said he watched the FPSR at second then swiveled to first to watch for the pulled foot/swipe tag. He felt the batter beat the throw and was surprised by the out call, although it was a bang-bang play.

The whole thrust of this question is that the base ump kicked the call, knew he kicked the call, but did not have the courage to correct his error. He asked the PU to compromise his integrity by lying in the interest of "getting it right".

P.S. As I am sure you have surmised, this is a hypothetical situation made up to generate more discussion about what lengths should be taken to get the call right.

David B · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 29, 2004, 08:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue37

Quote:

Originally posted by DG
I will read the rest of the posts later, but respond first. Joe is PU. "Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe" and BU wanted him to say that he was off the bag so they can get it right, but then Joe told you "the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definitely in contact with the bag when the throw was received". Sounds like Joe, the PU, can't make up his mind.

DG,

I apologize for giving any indication that Joe was indecisive. He said he watched the FPSR at second then swiveled to first to watch for the pulled foot/swipe tag. He felt the batter beat the throw and was surprised by the out call, although it was a bang-bang play.

The whole thrust of this question is that the base ump kicked the call, knew he kicked the call, but did not have the courage to correct his error. He asked the PU to compromise his integrity by lying in the interest of "getting it right".

P.S. As I am sure you have surmised, this is a hypothetical situation made up to generate more discussion about what lengths should be taken to get the call right. [/B]

Wait a minute. Its a bang bang play at first and the PU who is half way to the mound can see that the batter beat the throw.

I don't even want to go there.

Its a bang bang play live with the call.

Its BU's call all the way.

PU keep his mouth shut and return to the plate for the next pitch.

And if a coach asks me, I'm going to tell him, "ask the BU, he made the call."

This is getting ridiculous.

thanks
David

DG · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 29, 2004, 09:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by David B

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue37

Quote:

Originally posted by DG
I will read the rest of the posts later, but respond first. Joe is PU. "Joe said it looked to him like the batter was safe" and BU wanted him to say that he was off the bag so they can get it right, but then Joe told you "the 1st baseman stretched hard toward second to receive the relay and did come off the bag after receiving the throw, but was definitely in contact with the bag when the throw was received". Sounds like Joe, the PU, can't make up his mind.

DG,

I apologize for giving any indication that Joe was indecisive. He said he watched the FPSR at second then swiveled to first to watch for the pulled foot/swipe tag. He felt the batter beat the throw and was surprised by the out call, although it was a bang-bang play.

The whole thrust of this question is that the base ump kicked the call, knew he kicked the call, but did not have the courage to correct his error. He asked the PU to compromise his integrity by lying in the interest of "getting it right".

P.S. As I am sure you have surmised, this is a hypothetical situation made up to generate more discussion about what lengths should be taken to get the call right.

Wait a minute. Its a bang bang play at first and the PU who is half way to the mound can see that the batter beat the throw.

I don't even want to go there.

Its a bang bang play live with the call.

Its BU's call all the way.

PU keep his mouth shut and return to the plate for the next pitch.

And if a coach asks me, I'm going to tell him, "ask the BU, he made the call."

This is getting ridiculous.

thanks
David

[/B]

The only reason I would discuss this with BU is to tell him that he has made a call and we will live with it. Because we discussed it, and did not change the call, it gives appearance that agreement is reached, without having to lie about it. Plus, it gives me good opportunity to make sure BU knows that if he wants help on a call he has to ask before he makes the call, not after. This would have been a pre-game emphasis that he forgot in the heat of the bang-bang play.