balk towards 2nd base

[DG]

I'm guessing here, because I don't know squat about Dixie, but I bet the NO PENALTY clause in Dixie rules is for 12 and under age groups. Generally, most leagues have rules that don't have penalties for balks for 12 and unders, since they can't lead off anyway. Exception would probably be PONY baseball, Mustang league, where bases are longer (ie 70 feet for 11-12) and leading off is normal. At age 13, things change. I bet there is a Senior Dixie division that would call balks.

[mcrowder]

Click on http://www.dixie.org/Uploads/Dixie/N...ment_rules.asp

Or, go to http://www.dixie.org, click on baseball, click on rules and regulations. Right at the top is the link to the full rulebook - labelled 2004 Official Rules and Regulations.

Here is the full text of rule 8.05 regarding Balks. I love the repeated "reserved" throughout the book.

Note that this is not in the age-specific rules, and goes right up to age 18.

8.05—A balk occurs when—
(a) The pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;
(b) Reserved
(c) Reserved
(d) Reserved
(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;
(f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while not facing the batter;
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch while not touching the pitcher’s plate;
(h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate feints a pitch;
(j) Reserved
(k) The pitcher, while touching the plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;
(l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box.
(m) Reserved
NO PENALTY: Any pitch or any action by the pitcher construed as a balk by the umpire shall be declared a no pitch. The ball is dead and no runner shall advance.
NOTE: Any action by the batter or any member of the offensive team, including the coaches, that, in the opinion of the umpire-in-chief, causes a pitcher to commit an illegal pitch or balk shall result in the pitch being declared a no pitch. The ball shall be dead and no runners shall advance.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Click on http://www.dixie.org/Uploads/Dixie/N...ment_rules.asp

Or, go to http://www.dixie.org, click on baseball, click on rules and regulations. Right at the top is the link to the full rulebook - labelled 2004 Official Rules and Regulations.

Here is the full text of rule 8.05 regarding Balks. I love the repeated "reserved" throughout the book.

Note that this is not in the age-specific rules, and goes right up to age 18.

8.05—A balk occurs when—
(a) The pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;
(b) Reserved
(c) Reserved
(d) Reserved
(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;
(f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while not facing the batter;
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch while not touching the pitcher’s plate;
(h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate feints a pitch;
(j) Reserved
(k) The pitcher, while touching the plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;
(l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box.
(m) Reserved
NO PENALTY: Any pitch or any action by the pitcher construed as a balk by the umpire shall be declared a no pitch. The ball is dead and no runner shall advance.
NOTE: Any action by the batter or any member of the offensive team, including the coaches, that, in the opinion of the umpire-in-chief, causes a pitcher to commit an illegal pitch or balk shall result in the pitch being declared a no pitch. The ball shall be dead and no runners shall advance.

Well, I'm sorry to hear this. It's a really, really dumb rule. Here's why:

With runners on first and second, the defense decides to walk the batter. The catcher stands up, holding his hand toward his right, and then jumps out of the catcher's box. The pitcher, not paying really close attention, sends the ball over the plate, and the batter hits a three-run homer. Oops, balk, and NO PITCH.

What if the pitcher, while off the rubber, pitches? That's a balk in baseball (I don't know what Dixie is). If the batter gets on base and everybody advances, the fact the pitcher delivered while not in contact with the rubber is ignored.

Not to mention the fact that one of the purposes of Youth Leagues is to prepare players for other venues.

Can't you just imagine the Dixie Youth graduate in his first year of JUCO. He balks, delivers, and watches the ball fly out of the park. "Well, thank God I balked," he'll say -- until the run goes up on the board.

Finally, any rule where the offense argues the defense DID NOT COMMIT AN INFRACTION is an awful rule.

Play: The Dixie Youth pitcher balks, delivers, and the batter homers. Now, the offensive skipper will rush out to the umpire:

"Hey," he will scream. "What's the matter with you? That pitcher didn't balk. You must be blind!"

The defensive skipper will rush out to say: "Oh, yes, he balked. He's been doing off and on all year. I'm sure glad some umpire finally caught him. What a great blue you are!"

Gag me for the pitching rule in Dixie Youth.

Thank God, there are no Leagues like that down here!

[David B]

THIS IS NOT DIXIE YOUTH!!!! Dixie Youth is ages 12 and under.

The post above is about DIXIE BOYS!!! Ages 13-18

Dixie Boys baseball is based upon OBR rules.

It has a few minor changes but nothing major.

Dixie Boys pitching rules are listed in the rules book rule 8, but there is nothing about balks. It is all information for the coaches.

Now Dixie Youth has many many changes, but they are all listed on their website and in their rulebooks.

The only specialty rules that Dixie Boys use is malicious contact and obstruction (where they pretty much follow FED)

There are also some differences for 13-14 (still youngsters) and the Dixie Pre-Major and Majors which is 15-16, and 17-18 (kids that shave regularly)

The penalties for balk are same as OBR.

Thanks
David



QUOTE]Originally posted by mcrowder
Click on http://www.dixie.org/Uploads/Dixie/N...ment_rules.asp

Or, go to http://www.dixie.org, click on baseball, click on rules and regulations. Right at the top is the link to the full rulebook - labelled 2004 Official Rules and Regulations.

Here is the full text of rule 8.05 regarding Balks. I love the repeated "reserved" throughout the book.

Note that this is not in the age-specific rules, and goes right up to age 18.

8.05—A balk occurs when—
(a) The pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;
(b) Reserved
(c) Reserved
(d) Reserved
(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;
(f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while not facing the batter;
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch while not touching the pitcher’s plate;
(h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate feints a pitch;
(j) Reserved
(k) The pitcher, while touching the plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;
(l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box.
(m) Reserved
NO PENALTY: Any pitch or any action by the pitcher construed as a balk by the umpire shall be declared a no pitch. The ball is dead and no runner shall advance.
NOTE: Any action by the batter or any member of the offensive team, including the coaches, that, in the opinion of the umpire-in-chief, causes a pitcher to commit an illegal pitch or balk shall result in the pitch being declared a no pitch. The ball shall be dead and no runners shall advance.
[/QUOTE]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by David B
[B]THIS IS NOT DIXIE YOUTH!!!! Dixie Youth is ages 12 and under.

The post above is about DIXIE BOYS!!! Ages 13-18

Dixie Boys baseball is based upon OBR rules.

It has a few minor changes but nothing major.

Dixie Boys pitching rules are listed in the rules book rule 8, but there is nothing about balks. It is all information for the coaches.

Now Dixie Youth has many many changes, but they are all listed on their website and in their rulebooks.

The only specialty rules that Dixie Boys use is malicious contact and obstruction (where they pretty much follow FED)

There are also some differences for 13-14 (still youngsters) and the Dixie Pre-Major and Majors which is 15-16, and 17-18 (kids that shave regularly)

The penalties for balk are same as OBR.

Thanks
David[/b/

David: I'm seriously confused. mcrodwer quotes a series of rules from dixie.org, where there's NO PENALTY for a balk.

Comment 1: You say: "This is not Dixie Youth!"

Comment 2: You say: "The post above is about Dixie Boys!!!"

Comment 3: You say: "The only specialty rules that Dixie Boys use is malicious contact and obstruction (where they pretty much follow FED)."

If you're right, mcrowder 's rules, downloaded from dixie.org don't apply to Dixie Youth or Dixie Boys.

What up, Baby?

[David B]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

David: I'm seriously confused. mcrodwer quotes a series of rules from dixie.org, where there's NO PENALTY for a balk.

Comment 1: You say: "This is not Dixie Youth!"

Comment 2: You say: "The post above is about Dixie Boys!!!"

Comment 3: You say: "The only specialty rules that Dixie Boys use is malicious contact and obstruction (where they pretty much follow FED)."

If you're right, mcrowder 's rules, downloaded from dixie.org don't apply to Dixie Youth or Dixie Boys.

What up, Baby?

I think I confused the issue also.

I was responding to mcrodwer that the rules he posted from the web site were for Dixie Youth which is 12-u. (not up to age 18 as he suggested)

The balk that we were talking about was the comments from the coach Willsun.

He was asking about specifically Dixie Boys in his post...

So I was trying to clear the water and separate the two.

Dixie Youth has no penalty for balks, its a don't do that and start over.

Dixie Boys follows OBR as far as balks.

Now hopefully that is a little more clear.

Thanks
DAvid

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by David B

I think I confused the issue also.

I was responding to mcrodwer that the rules he posted from the web site were for Dixie Youth which is 12-u. (not up to age 18 as he suggested)

The balk that we were talking about was the comments from the coach Willsun.

He was asking about specifically Dixie Boys in his post...

So I was trying to clear the water and separate the two.

Dixie Youth has no penalty for balks, its a don't do that and start over.

Dixie Boys follows OBR as far as balks.

Now hopefully that is a little more clear.

Thanks
DAvid

Thanks, DAvid. Let me repeat: I'm glad there ain't no Dixie Youth leagues down here!

[David B]

[/QUOTE]Thanks, DAvid. Let me repeat: I'm glad there ain't no Dixie Youth leagues down here! [/QUOTE]

yeah, our local leagues have gone to Dizzy Dean which is more OBR.

I used to head up our local leagues when they did Dixie Youth. I liked it, but we called balks in our league. It was an illegal pitch but we did not advance the runners.

I only do HS and up now, which is Dixie BOys and Majors, just like OBR with a few safety rules.

Thanks
David

[BayouUmp]

Good discussion guys. I personally have only called a balk to second one time, and that's when a not-so-coordinated pitcher (while attempting to spin) tripped over the rubber, fell off the mound, and dropped the ball.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
Good discussion guys. I personally have only called a balk to second one time, and that's when a not-so-coordinated pitcher (while attempting to spin) tripped over the rubber, fell off the mound, and dropped the ball.

You may not like this, but if the pitcher falls off the mound and THEN drops the ball (as you describe), it ain't a balk. (8.05k)

IIITBTSB!

[BayouUmp]

I should have known to be more specific. Fall was back toward the plate. So balk was called on the fall, not due to the dropped ball. Sorry.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
I should have known to be more specific. Fall was back toward the plate. So balk was called on the fall, not due to the dropped ball. Sorry.

If the pitcher starts his motion to pitch and falls down, that is a balk. (8.05a)

If the pitcher starts to throw to first and falls down, that is balk. (8.05b)

And the rule book citation that permits you to call a balk because the pitcher fell down while turning toward second is ...?

[BayouUmp]

8.05
The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery


Whether he 'intendeded' to throw to 2nd is irrelevent...he failed. If a RHP brings his left leg up and back, then comes toward the plate (falling or otherwise) without delivering the pitch, it is a balk. I guess you had to be there.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
8.05
The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery


Whether he 'intendeded' to throw to 2nd is irrelevent...he failed. If a RHP brings his left leg up and back, then comes toward the plate (falling or otherwise) without delivering the pitch, it is a balk. I guess you had to be there.

Sorry, that excuse won't work. You said he fell down "(while attempting to spin)." That simply cannot be interpretaed as a "motion naturally associated with his pitch."

Sir, pitchers have been falling down on the mound for years. If it happens while he is trying to do anything other than pitch or throw to first, it ain't a balk.

Runners on the corners. The pitcher tries the 3-1 move, but when he steps toward third, he trips and falls off the mound. Sure, R1 is gonna take second on the play. But you're not gonna balk in R3, are you?

Now, there's a FED casebook play where the pitcher, with the bases empty, falls down and doesn't deliver within 20 seconds. The umpire is to award a ball to the batter. (6.1.2a)

But if he does, I hope his clicker stops working in the middle of the championship game. (Where he has the plate, of course, Fronheiser.)

[BayouUmp]

I appreciate your knowledge and experience and have definately learned from our discussion. thx