your thoughts...

[Jim Porter]

My mentor has a saying that he uses often and it fits in this case -

"Don't let crap like that ruin a perfectly good game of baseball."

[MPC]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B



There are many umpires who read the material on this site and who might not post replies and we just want to make sure that misinformation is not spread.

And as Jim stated, this is something that you really hardly ever see in a baseball game.

Thanks
David

[Edited by MPC on May 8th, 2004 at 10:15 PM]

[David B]

Originally posted by MPC

I agree 100% which is why it would be nice if there were a rules committee person that could chime in here. I've now discussed this case with our h.s. assignor and college assignor who are top shelf rules guys. They both agree that F2 must stay in the box until the ball is released. It would stand to reason since NCAA specifies "...releases the ball..."

I realize that bases are awarded at TOP. Just as with Time of the throw. Given each is different, on "time of throw" you award runners based on where they were when the ball is released. Not when he begins his crow hop. Sorry I'm not citing here but this was just pounded in our heads at school. Watch the ball and glance at the runners. Find the runner when the ball is released.

Believe me, I'm not afraid to say I've kicked this situation if indeed I have. However, this play has been run by guys who are considered the best rules guys in our state and each has agreed that F2 must be in the box when the pitch is released. So, who's one to believe?
[/B]

Well I don't have any of my books with me but my FED, but in FED if your HS assisgnor is calling it that way, then you might want to tell him he's doing it wrong.

The FED rules have been stated very clearly.

I've about decided that you like to stir a pot and then you don't have the rules to back it up.

If you can show me by rule in FED, then I'd believe you, but you can't.

Have a good season, as I stated before if you keep making these third world calls you're going to have a long season.

I like Jim's statement above. Baseball is just not that hard.

Thanks
DAvid

[DG]

For the pitcher, and for awards, there is very little difference between TOP and TOT, since they happen very close together. But this situation sounds like catcher interference to me, whether the batter was swinging or not. If he is receiving a pitch in fair territory he is interfering with the batter's right to swing at a pitch. Batter awarded 1B, runners advance as necessary due to award.

Balk is always a pitcher infraction. The only time a catcher is involved is when the pitcher delivers to the catcher when the catcher is not within the catcher's box, something the pitcher can plainly see at TOP. I have never seen this called, anywhere.

[MPC]

Originally posted by David B
[

The FED rules have been stated very clearly.

---Yes they have but they don't appear very clear---

I've about decided that you like to stir a pot and then you don't have the rules to back it up.

---Call it what you want. I call it finding an answer with an adult conversation since it's all apart of the learning process. Pot, yes, there is an old saying about what the pot calls the kettle.---

If you can show me by rule in FED, then I'd believe you, but you can't.

---And you did? If you've read my posts you see where I've cited FED, NCAA, and OBR. Nobody, INCLUDING YOU, has shown when the TOP ends. I'm not splitting hairs here. If NCAA considers it at the release and clearly defines it that way, what makes you think that FED hasn't just overlooked that. It seems they've overlooked one or two things over the years you know.---

Have a good season, as I stated before if you keep making these third world calls you're going to have a long season.

---This looks like where the adult conversation regresses.---

I like Jim's statement above. Baseball is just not that hard.

--Jim is correct. When you go digging for boogers you find them. I'm sure he'd also say that the cream rises to the top in the big games when people are depending on umpires having the guts to step up and make tuff call. The guys who choose what rules they decide to enforce don't make it to the big game.--
---------------
It's odd that several people have said they've never seen this play. It has happened several times in our state deep in regional and sectional play. It does exist. People just don't recognize it.

Thank you David!


Thanks
DAvid [/B]

[DG]

Originally posted by MPC
SCYGUY,
I had a similar play last week in a h.s. game with two bitter cross town rivals. Top of 5th, R3, 1 out, pitcher from stretch. Runner breaks for home just prior to P starting his motion home. RHanded Batter squares to attempt the squeeze. Catcher stands up and jumps out into the LH Batters Box prior to the release at the time of the pitch. Batter steps in front of plate and trys to bunt the ball that is 4-5 outside. Catcher catches it and attempts to put the tag on the runner but has to go thru the Batter.

Meanwhile I'm walking out from behind the plate with hands up and time. "Balk, Catcher was out of the box at the time of the pitch. No Pitch, No play, That run scores." Visitors win 1-0.

Coach trys to argue batter out of the box. Doesn't matter. Then tries to argue interference on batter with the attempt to make a play on R3. Doesn't matter since there was no malicious contact. Play was dead at the time of the pitch because of the illegal pitch/balk.

"prior to release at time of pitch" This is the part I don't understand. If the catcher was out of the box before TOP then the balk is on the pitcher. If catcher moved outside the catcher's box after TOP then no balk and we have play at the plate to rule on, as well as a pitch to call (first item). Release of the pitch has nothing to do with anything. There might be a second or so between TOP and release of the pitch.

[David B]

Originally posted by MPC

[/B]

Why does it matter when the TOP ends? What matters is when is the time of the pitch. FED has not overlooked it, they have a specific rule 2-28. It is not mentioned in the case book with any changes and its not listed in any of the FED interpretations for the last several years.

The FED rule is very clear, F2 must keep a foot in the box until the time of pitch.

That is in set or windup when he starts movement to pitch the ball to the plate.

Maybe what's confusing you is that NCAA and OBR do have a little different twist.

NCAA - The catcher must remain in the box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

OBR - The catcher must remain in the catcher's box when the pitcher delivers only while the defense is giving an intentional base on balls. The F2 may leave his box when the pitch leaves the pitcher's hand.

But, official interpretation states "during the intentional walk the catcher may jump from his box as soon as the pitcher begins his preliminary motions."

Also - in OBR, during a pitch-out the catcher may jump from his box at any time regardless of whether the pitcher has started his preliminary motion.

So there it is clear as mud.

So for FED, your HS guy was completely wrong. Don't penalize the F2 for doing it correctly.

If you're using OBR or NCAA things are different.

As far as the play when the catcher obstructs (FED) or interferes (NCAA or OBR), (probably during a squeeze play) then you rule accordingly.

FED - it's basic catcher's obstruction. (since runner is advancing though he would get home)

NCAA - pitcher is charged with a balk and catcher with interference.

OBR - the batter and all runners advance one base on catcher's interference udring a squeeze or steal of home.

I pulled this last section from my BRD - good book you might want to purchase one.

Thanks
David

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by MPC
[Stand corrected if time of pitch ends the moment it begins. You are saying that once the motion begins, time of pitch is over and F2 can move. I'm under the impression that the time of the pitch doesn't end until the pitch is delivered/released.

"TOP" is an instant. It has no beginning or end -- it just happens. It's not a period of time like a pitch -- which has a defined beginning (TOP) and end (when the ball is caught, comes to rest, is hit and whatever else is in 2-28).

[MPC]

Guys, you are all making valid points to support your position. However, it seems that our state interprets it differently. We are trying to get one of our state commissioners to get an official ruling or clarification from the FED rules comm.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by MPC
Guys, you are all making valid points to support your position. However, it seems that our state interprets it differently. We are trying to get one of our state commissioners to get an official ruling or clarification from the FED rules comm.

There's no need for a rule "clarification." The time of the pitch is that moment when the pitcher is committed to delivery. You're confusing when the time of the pitch "begins" and when the pitch "ends." See FED 2-28-3 (TOP) and 2-28-4 (pitch ends).

The time of the pitch is important for: making awards, returning runners to bases, allowing the catcher out of the box.

You're staying that there is an end to the time of the pitch. But it's like the width of a line in geometry; there isn't any.

The situation: Pitchout during a steal. When is the catcher free to leave the box?

(1) In FED the catcher may leave the instant the pitcher begins his motion. I seriously question whether your state has a ruling to the contrary. Rather, I think there has been miscommunication. Happily, the FED rule book is crystal on that point.

(2) In NCAA, the catcher may not vacate the box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. Your college guy was right on that, except.... If you watch any college ball, you know that rule is simply not enforced. They use the OBR practice that applies to an intentional walk.

(3) In OBR, during a pitchout the catcher may leave his box at any time. He must remain in his box until the pitcher begins his motion ONLY when the defense is granting an intentional base on balls.

Strangely enough, Evans and Roder agree: Intentional walk -- The catcher can't leave until the ball is delivered. Anybody who watches major league baseball knows that ain't so either.

The BRD explains all this pretty well in Section 284.

[scyguy]

Catcher leaves box after TOP, catches ball BEFORE it reaches plate and then tags out runner coming from third. Batter does not swing or make contact with catcher. Do we not still have catcher obstruction according the FED? Doesn't catcher have to wait until ball reaches and crosses plate (or at least the same distance as with a pitchout)?

I am not getting into the TOP argument, this is easy to distinguish, I was wondering about a throw from the pitcher that never reaches plate because catcher jumps out and catches it before it can reach plate.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by scyguy
Catcher leaves box after TOP, catches ball BEFORE it reaches plate and then tags out runner coming from third. Batter does not swing or make contact with catcher. Do we not still have catcher obstruction according the FED? Doesn't catcher have to wait until ball reaches and crosses plate (or at least the same distance as with a pitchout)?

I am not getting into the TOP argument, this is easy to distinguish, I was wondering about a throw from the pitcher that never reaches plate because catcher jumps out and catches it before it can reach plate.

That's called the same at all three levels. Look at FED 8-1-1e, NCAA 8-3p, and OBR 7.07. In the BRD it's section 285: catcher interference. In NCAA and OBR, it's also a balk.

[scyguy]

thanks, that is the rule I quoted at the beginning of this thread. Immediate dead ball, award runner from third home, however, do not award ball or strike on pitch and do not award batter first.