Need another ruling

[leatherneck1142]

Tonight in a 12u travel league game we had the following situation:
Runner on first base.
Pitcher attempts pick off R1, the ball gets by the first baseman and hits the fence near the dugout that is in play (where the 2 previous pickoff attempts went) The ball is in play. The first baseman hustles over and grabs the live ball and while doing so his right foot slides into dead ball territory. The ump calls a dead ball and awards runner 2b? Is this the correct call?
The ball never went into dead ball territory.
Thanks

[rcaverly]

Under what rules was the game being played?

[MT 73]

"A fielder may, after securing possession of the ball, step or go into Dead Ball Territory, other than a spectator area, with one or both feet and if he holds the ball and not fall down, the catch shall be legal and the ball is live"
This comes from the Wendelstedt manual under catch and carry in OBR and I think it will apply in the OP's situation.
Am not sure if this is the same in Federation.

[LRZ]

As I understand the OP, the question is about the location of the ball versus position of the fielder. OBR Rule 5.06(b)(4)(H) addresses a ball thrown by the pitcher from his position on the pitcher's plate to a base to catch a runner going into DBT. Under this rule, if the ball never went into DBT, the call was wrong.

I don't know about Fed rules.

Parenthetically, the OBR rule regarding "catch and carry" of fly balls was amended a year ago. Now, once a fielder "steps or falls into" DBT, the ball is dead. Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) and Comment.

Now that I think about it, if the ball did go into DBT under the circumstances as described in the OP, the award would be two bases. Rule 5.06(b)(4)(H) Approved Ruling.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by MT 73

"A fielder may, after securing possession of the ball, step or go into Dead Ball Territory, other than a spectator area, with one or both feet and if he holds the ball and not fall down, the catch shall be legal and the ball is live"
This comes from the Wendelstedt manual under catch and carry in OBR and I think it will apply in the OP's situation.
Am not sure if this is the same in Federation.

What year is your WUM?
In 2016 OBR "Amended Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) and 5.06(b)(3)(C) Comment regarding a fielder stepping or falling into an out-of-play area."

"(C) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, steps or falls
into any out-of-play area;"

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by umpjim

What year is your WUM?
In 2016 OBR "Amended Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) and 5.06(b)(3)(C) Comment regarding a fielder stepping or falling into an out-of-play area."

"(C) A fielder, after catching a fly ball, steps or falls
into any out-of-play area;"

2015.
So--if he steps into DBT with one or 2 feet it is now a dead ball?
But should' it just be a one base award?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by MT 73

2015.
So--if he steps into DBT with one or 2 feet it is now a dead ball?
But should' it just be a one base award?

The "catch" portion of the rule presents a semantic problem but I think if a fielder with a ball steps into dead ball territory it would be 1 base.

[MT 73]

Agreed.
In softball if a fielder intentionally steps into DBT it is a 2 base award.
I wonder if OBR will follow suit?

[rcaverly]

NFHS does not allow for "catch and carry" like other codes. NFHS fielders are considered in DBT only when NO PART of their body is in contact with LBT.

2.9.1 SITUATION C:

COMMENT: The playing field includes both fair and foul playing territory. Any other areas beyond the playing field are defined as being outside the playing field (dead-ball area). Any wall, fence, barricade, rope, wire, marked or imaginary line is considered a part of the playing field. Any areas beyond those boundaries are outside the playing field. A fielder’s status, generally, is determined by the location of his feet, and when a foot is touching a boundary line or the playing field inside the boundary line, he has not left the playing field, even though his other foot might be in contact with the area beyond the boundary line. Umpires may use the following guidelines to determine the status of a fielder following the catch of a batted or thrown live ball: (1) It is a catch when he has one or both feet touching the playing field, or with both feet in flight prior to his touching any dead-ball area. (2) If after making the catch both feet are entirely in a dead-ball area, the ball becomes dead. (3) If the ball is caught after he has established his position outside the playing field, it is not a legal catch. Also remember that whenever a dead ball follows a catch, there are instances when one or more runners may be awarded bases. (5-1-1i, 8-3-3d)

5-1-1 Ball becomes dead immediately when:

i. a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line; or

5.1.1 SITUATION L:
F7, while attempting to catch a fly ball near dead-ball area (a) makes the catch with one foot on the dead-ball area line and the other foot in dead-ball area, or (b) makes the catch with both feet in the dead-ball area, or (c) makes the catch with both feet in the playing area and then steps with both feet or falls into the dead-ball area.
RULING: In (b) and (c), the ball becomes dead. In (a) and (c), it is a legal catch, but in (c), F7 has left the playing area and if there are any runners on base, they each are awarded one base. In (b), it is not a catch. (8-3-3d)

5.1.1 SITUATION P:
F7 makes a diving catch. As he slides over the line designating dead-ball territory, his feet remain in live-ball territory. Is the ball dead?
RULING: No. F7 must be entirely in dead-ball territory before the ball shall be declared dead. As long as any part of F7’s body is touching the designated deadball line, the ball remains live. (5-1-1i)

8-3-3 Each runner is awarded:

c. two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence, or lodges in a defensive player's or umpire's equipment or uniform; or if a live thrown ball:
1. including a pitch, is touched by an illegal glove or mitt, or by detached player equipment which is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder; or
2. goes into a stand for spectators, dugout or player's bench or over or through or lodges in a fence and it is not thrown by a pitcher from his plate as in 8-3-3d;
3. When two runners are between the same bases on an overthrow into dead ball* territory, the lead runner receives two bases and the following runner is awarded one, since both runners cannot share the same awarded base.
4. Runners between second and third would score, because the award does not result in both runners occupying the same base.

d. one base if a pitch or any throw by the pitcher from his pitching position on his plate goes into a stand or bench or over or through or lodges in a fence or backstop or touches a spectator or lodges in an umpire's or catcher's equipment; or with less than two outs, the batter hits a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive) which is caught by a fielder, who then leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, *bleacher or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line or pre-game determined imaginary boundary line. A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder deliberately throws or carries the ball into dead ball territory to prevent that runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. Award the runner two bases. This allows the runner(s) to correct any base-running error. Defense may still appeal the play.

(That's all the cut 'n pasting one man should do on any given day. I'm going fishing.)

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by MT 73

Agreed.
In softball if a fielder intentionally steps into DBT it is a 2 base award.
I wonder if OBR will follow suit?

I would think that, under OBR, this would already carry a two-base award, under the principle that it is the fielder's momentum that caused the ball to go into DBT, like the difference between a wild pitch or passed ball versus a ball that the catcher inadvertently kicks into DBT.

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by LRZ

I would think that, under OBR, this would already carry a two-base award, under the principle that it is the fielder's momentum that caused the ball to go into DBT, like the difference between a wild pitch or passed ball versus a ball that the catcher inadvertently kicks into DBT.

The rule you are referring to is called a subsequent push..
I am not positive but I do not think the same rule applies to the OP.
To be honest this whole stepping into DBT is very confusing to me.

[Rich Ives]

DBT awards in MLB seem only to be given if the fielder goes completely into DBT. Being jackknifed over the fence doesn't seem to warrant an award.

[leatherneck1142]

I couldn't find the part in the rules you stated if the ball stays in fair territory and only a body part crosses the imaginery line to DBT. I understand if he caught it and then went into DBT, but the ball hit the fence and stopped in fair territory and the first baseman came over, picked it up and while picking it up his left foot crossed the line.

[leatherneck1142]

The link is here. I cannot find any specifics in regards to this situation, but somewhere along the way it says "major league" rules.
http://www.iltbl.com/assets/2017-12u-iltbl-rules.pdf
Thanks everyone for the input. I really appreciate it.

[bob jenkins]

You won't find the exact definition in the rule book itself. Here's an interp from J/R that will help (note that the FED rule is a little different):

FIELDER- A fielder is "on" or "in" DBT if
(a) he is standing and any portion of his foot is touching an object on
DBT or an area that is DBT.
(b) he has fallen and the greater portion of his body is touching an area
that is DBT.
(c) he is leaping and his leap originated from the surface of an object
on DBT or from an area that is DBT.