Pitcher throwing to unoccupied base

[Matt]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Had discussion about this one with very experienced ump, one of the key things to my question which he mentioned is the timing. So lets say the lefty move if the Lefty raises his leg then the runner breaks, he must continue with throw to 1st because otherwise move would be considered throwing to unoccupied base since the time of the first move by the P the runner was not advancing yet, he only started to advance after the pitcher lifted his leg. Same thing with RHP, if that left foot goes up, he cant "guess" the runner is stealing and turn to 2B, if he does its a balk, unless the runner breaks before the p lifts his leg, like an early steal.

He's wrong.

[Only a fan]

Another situation....runners at 1st and 2nd and batter squares to bunt. 1st baseman charges with right handed pitcher. He attempts a pick off at 1st...at what point in relation to where the 1st baseman is located is the pitcher not considered throwing to 1st base? How far away from 1st can the 1st baseman be before the pitcher is considered not throwing directly to the base?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Only a fan

Another situation....runners at 1st and 2nd and batter squares to bunt. 1st baseman charges with right handed pitcher. He attempts a pick off at 1st...at what point in relation to where the 1st baseman is located is the pitcher not considered throwing to 1st base? How far away from 1st can the 1st baseman be before the pitcher is considered not throwing directly to the base?

If he's close enough to make an immediate play on the runner, he's close enough.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Only a fan

Another situation....runners at 1st and 2nd and batter squares to bunt. 1st baseman charges with right handed pitcher. He attempts a pick off at 1st...at what point in relation to where the 1st baseman is located is the pitcher not considered throwing to 1st base? How far away from 1st can the 1st baseman be before the pitcher is considered not throwing directly to the base?

My guess if he is charging in on a bunt, he is not close enough.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Matt

He's wrong.

Its a wierd one for sure and honestly one that has a very small window of time that it would actually be applied (9U and 10U travel ball or that level of Pony? where they can lead and steal)...Im not 100% what to think. I get both sides. Because at the time you lift your leg, the runner has not gone yet, so how are you making a play on a runner who has not yet attempted to go?

He only goes AFTER your leg lifts to throw to an unoccupied base?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Its a wierd one for sure and honestly one that has a very small window of time that it would actually be applied (9U and 10U travel ball or that level of Pony? where they can lead and steal)...Im not 100% what to think. I get both sides. Because at the time you lift your leg, the runner has not gone yet, so how are you making a play on a runner who has not yet attempted to go?

He only goes AFTER your leg lifts to throw to an unoccupied base?

Watch a lefty move. He lifts his leg then steps to 1B. Legal. Go in the lift and you are dead meat.

[parrothead]

Agree he can go to first, but if the runner breaks on the lift can he spin and go to 2B, that is the ?? The answer I got was no, that if you lift leg and runner hasnt broken at time of lift, even if he runs after you lift, you have to continue to 1B or pitch, cant turn and throw to 2B. If the runner leaves before the leg is lifted you can.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Agree he can go to first, but if the runner breaks on the lift can he spin and go to 2B, that is the ?? The answer I got was no, that if you lift leg and runner hasnt broken at time of lift, even if he runs after you lift, you have to continue to 1B or pitch, cant turn and throw to 2B. If the runner leaves before the leg is lifted you can.

Wrong.

And in reality they just throw to 1B and F3 throws to 2B and the runner is out 98% of the time. I think people see this and think it has to be done this way.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Wrong.

And in reality they just throw to 1B and F3 throws to 2B and the runner is out 98% of the time. I think people see this and think it has to be done this way.

98% is pretty extreme, as I mentioned there are several factors that go into the first move lefty play. What I know most of the time is that when we are stealing 2b straight, the rule of thumb is "no jump no go" - and with LHP guys often get bad jumps trying to go straight, there are just some lefties and situations its very difficult to run...but...

If you have certain things in play:
1. Lefty with high slow deliberate pick to 1B
2. Usually a slow, not great throwing RH 1B who needs to catch, clear lane and throw. Its usually tougher for a RH1B, because the lefty is easier and sometimes almost already positioned with their throwing arm forward to be in the throwing lane to covering SS.
3. SS who doesnt break to cover at the time of the pick and is late to get over

But you are right, if these factors are not there, your gonna get gunned down pretty easily a large majority of the time.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Agree he can go to first, but if the runner breaks on the lift can he spin and go to 2B, that is the ?? The answer I got was no, that if you lift leg and runner hasnt broken at time of lift, even if he runs after you lift, you have to continue to 1B or pitch, cant turn and throw to 2B. If the runner leaves before the leg is lifted you can.

Again, you were told wrong.

NCAA has verbiage to the effect that:

• Once the leg is lifted, F1 can't throw to the base behind him
• Once the foot crosses the rubber, F1 can't throw to the base he faces
• Once the leg starts forward, F1 must throw to home

(You can get the book online for the exact wording)

The same concept applies in all codes.

In your play, F1 is at the first bullet above -- so the opnly base he can't throw to is the one behind him.

[parrothead]

One behind him in this case being 3b correct?