Pitcher throwing to unoccupied base

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Not easily.

Quite easily. Used to the normal way to pick. The jump is relatively new in the grand scheme.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Are you sure you are not confusing righty pitcher with a left? Righty with a runner on first, you go on a straight steal with the left foot moving. Lefty you have to wait till the right foot goes toward the plate or you are dead, dead, dead.

You are not dead because the majority of lefties are pre-determined not reading the runner because so much of what they are doing are "called", called picks, called pitches etc and so often they will not divert from that, but you need to have some feel for what kind of pitcher this lefty is or a very common first move is after the P picks over.

* If he is a "reader" then he is not someone you would likely go first movement with as he lifts his leg not knowing whether he will go home or to 1st and reads the runner. If he is a reader you can take shorter leads, jab step a bit and force him to make many more throws over and get his focus off the hitter, which is why some coaches dont like their lefites to read.

The other HUGE component to the first move steal is who the 1B is, because in order to get that runner out, still takes a somewhat timely glove to hand exchange, clear a lane and make a good throw. If teams have a lefty pitcher with a RH slow moving not great arm 1B? Thats first move all day long.

We have a lefty pitcher, and pretty much the standard move is 1st movement steal, so we are usually very cautious about who is playing 1B when our lefty is on the bump. We actually work guys out who can make that specific exchange and throw.

[parrothead]

So last night was coaching 1B, and was chatting with base ump, said I want to ask you something before I try this pick, and I laid out the exact scenario kind of discussed, runner at 1B, RHP on mound, lifts leg and spins back to 2B, if runner was stealing that it is not a balk because he is making a play on runner and the "unoccupied base" provision does not apply, if runner does not go, its a balk.

He said, he would call balk, that you simply cannot throw to unoccupied base, period. I said "I thought same thing up until 6 mos ago when I saw a coach lose his $100 protest over similar scenario"

His comment to me was something I couldnt quite figure out what he was trying to say, which was the play on the runner provision has something to do with time of pitch.

[LRZ]

In OBR, if a pitcher throws to an unoccupied base because a runner fakes a steal, it is not a balk. See OBR 6.02(a)(4): It is a balk when "the pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play.... Comment: When determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base."

[parrothead]

Had discussion about this one with very experienced ump, one of the key things to my question which he mentioned is the timing. So lets say the lefty move if the Lefty raises his leg then the runner breaks, he must continue with throw to 1st because otherwise move would be considered throwing to unoccupied base since the time of the first move by the P the runner was not advancing yet, he only started to advance after the pitcher lifted his leg. Same thing with RHP, if that left foot goes up, he cant "guess" the runner is stealing and turn to 2B, if he does its a balk, unless the runner breaks before the p lifts his leg, like an early steal.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Had discussion about this one with very experienced ump, one of the key things to my question which he mentioned is the timing. So lets say the lefty move if the Lefty raises his leg then the runner breaks, he must continue with throw to 1st because otherwise move would be considered throwing to unoccupied base since the time of the first move by the P the runner was not advancing yet, he only started to advance after the pitcher lifted his leg. Same thing with RHP, if that left foot goes up, he cant "guess" the runner is stealing and turn to 2B, if he does its a balk, unless the runner breaks before the p lifts his leg, like an early steal.

He's wrong.

[Only a fan]

Another situation....runners at 1st and 2nd and batter squares to bunt. 1st baseman charges with right handed pitcher. He attempts a pick off at 1st...at what point in relation to where the 1st baseman is located is the pitcher not considered throwing to 1st base? How far away from 1st can the 1st baseman be before the pitcher is considered not throwing directly to the base?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Only a fan

Another situation....runners at 1st and 2nd and batter squares to bunt. 1st baseman charges with right handed pitcher. He attempts a pick off at 1st...at what point in relation to where the 1st baseman is located is the pitcher not considered throwing to 1st base? How far away from 1st can the 1st baseman be before the pitcher is considered not throwing directly to the base?

If he's close enough to make an immediate play on the runner, he's close enough.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Only a fan

Another situation....runners at 1st and 2nd and batter squares to bunt. 1st baseman charges with right handed pitcher. He attempts a pick off at 1st...at what point in relation to where the 1st baseman is located is the pitcher not considered throwing to 1st base? How far away from 1st can the 1st baseman be before the pitcher is considered not throwing directly to the base?

My guess if he is charging in on a bunt, he is not close enough.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Matt

He's wrong.

Its a wierd one for sure and honestly one that has a very small window of time that it would actually be applied (9U and 10U travel ball or that level of Pony? where they can lead and steal)...Im not 100% what to think. I get both sides. Because at the time you lift your leg, the runner has not gone yet, so how are you making a play on a runner who has not yet attempted to go?

He only goes AFTER your leg lifts to throw to an unoccupied base?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Its a wierd one for sure and honestly one that has a very small window of time that it would actually be applied (9U and 10U travel ball or that level of Pony? where they can lead and steal)...Im not 100% what to think. I get both sides. Because at the time you lift your leg, the runner has not gone yet, so how are you making a play on a runner who has not yet attempted to go?

He only goes AFTER your leg lifts to throw to an unoccupied base?

Watch a lefty move. He lifts his leg then steps to 1B. Legal. Go in the lift and you are dead meat.

[parrothead]

Agree he can go to first, but if the runner breaks on the lift can he spin and go to 2B, that is the ?? The answer I got was no, that if you lift leg and runner hasnt broken at time of lift, even if he runs after you lift, you have to continue to 1B or pitch, cant turn and throw to 2B. If the runner leaves before the leg is lifted you can.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Agree he can go to first, but if the runner breaks on the lift can he spin and go to 2B, that is the ?? The answer I got was no, that if you lift leg and runner hasnt broken at time of lift, even if he runs after you lift, you have to continue to 1B or pitch, cant turn and throw to 2B. If the runner leaves before the leg is lifted you can.

Wrong.

And in reality they just throw to 1B and F3 throws to 2B and the runner is out 98% of the time. I think people see this and think it has to be done this way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Agree he can go to first, but if the runner breaks on the lift can he spin and go to 2B, that is the ?? The answer I got was no, that if you lift leg and runner hasnt broken at time of lift, even if he runs after you lift, you have to continue to 1B or pitch, cant turn and throw to 2B. If the runner leaves before the leg is lifted you can.

Again, you were told wrong.

NCAA has verbiage to the effect that:

• Once the leg is lifted, F1 can't throw to the base behind him
• Once the foot crosses the rubber, F1 can't throw to the base he faces
• Once the leg starts forward, F1 must throw to home

(You can get the book online for the exact wording)

The same concept applies in all codes.

In your play, F1 is at the first bullet above -- so the opnly base he can't throw to is the one behind him.

[parrothead]

One behind him in this case being 3b correct?