Pitcher throwing to unoccupied base

[Rich]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Starting to see this a lot in the youth stuff, especially with all the travel ball where kids are playing with leads, picks, etc at younger ages. Have seen a lot of guys going "early" stealing from 2B to 3B, maybe on looks, timing, etc and the P just picking directly to 3B, even though its unoccupied, never went to home and the first time I saw it, I was 100% sure it was a balk because of the unoccupied base provision, but then the follow up is making a play on a runner and if that runner is going to 3B, that is what they are doing.

The one I saw last week I think was a balk, but maybe help me out because I think its a balk. Lefty P, Runner breaks 1st move lefty when he lifts his leg to pick, he lands the foot towards first but then doesnt throw, holds it and throws to 2B where he gets the out. Never stepped off and had almost ideal one at 3B with a righty. Where he stepped to pick, runner broke and he didnt throw (didnt disengage the rubber) I thought these were balks, but could be wrong.

A fake/feint to first is ALWAYS a balk. This is why pitchers typically throw to first when an R1 is breaking for second.

[parrothead]

So the feint to 1st even though runner is going to 2b? Could a lefty in theory lift his leg to pick to 1B, recognize the early break on 1st move and turn to 2b and throw to make a play on the runner.

So lift the leg if he goes, turn it into the "flamingo" and throw to 2B, if he doesnt go, just pick to 1B?

On the pick to 3B, it was OBR, not NCAA or Fed.

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by parrothead

So the feint to 1st even though runner is going to 2b? Could a lefty in theory lift his leg to pick to 1B, recognize the early break on 1st move and turn to 2b and throw to make a play on the runner.

So lift the leg if he goes, turn it into the "flamingo" and throw to 2B, if he doesnt go, just pick to 1B?

On the pick to 3B, it was OBR, not NCAA or Fed.

Any pitcher who is in contact with the rubber MUST throw it to first, and now 3rd in OBR. Cannot feint if he steps there.

In your lefty theory, yes he can continue to second with his non pivot foot and make a PLAY on the runner or pick to first, as long as foot doesn't cross the back plane going to first.

And I wouldn't "flamingo" too long!

[parrothead]

Yeah so tell a lefty, bring leg straight up, if they break on your first movement, then swing the leg around and throw to 2B and that is legal? If they dont move just continue the pick to 1B?

If a lefty did that, my guess is probably gets called balk 80% of time even though would be wrong.

[Rich Ives]

The rules are the same for lefty/righty.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The rules are the same for lefty/righty.

Yes but the coaching strategy is different, a lot of teams/baserunner philosophy is as soon as the lefty moves, they go. So lefty looking at 1B, lifts front leg, runner takes off on first move, the lefty seeing this could swing the leg back step towards 2B and throw there since the runner went to 2B so he is making a play on the runner.

Actually thinking about this, whats interesting is for a RHP, in the younger divisions of tourney ball, where they steal 2B on seemingly every pitch when on first a righty could in theory do something similar?

So knowing a runner is going, RHP on mound.
* RHP in stretch, left leg goes up to balance point, he swings it around and throws to 2B.
- If runner didnt steal, its a balk obviously, stepping to unoccupied base.
- If the runner is going, he is making a play on the runner?

These are basically running a pick that steps to 2B with a runner at 1B, which for years I always thought would be a balk, but with the "making a play on the runner" provision, that is potentially a strategy that comes into play and honestly at the youth level, they are gonna steal it anyway, so who cares if you guess wrong and its called a balk.

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Yeah so tell a lefty, bring leg straight up, if they break on your first movement, then swing the leg around and throw to 2B and that is legal? If they dont move just continue the pick to 1B?

If a lefty did that, my guess is probably gets called balk 80% of time even though would be wrong.

Sorry, but I didn't even read your last post.

A balk is a balk! To answer your question, yes it is legal! Same as a righty who lifts his non pivot foot and continues to second base, as long as the runner is stealing and there is a play to be made!

To answer your second question, as long as the non pivot foot doesn't cross the plane!

I think this was said before!?

For your last guess, it is just that! Prob only 50% of the time

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Yeah so tell a lefty, bring leg straight up, if they break on your first movement, then swing the leg around and throw to 2B and that is legal? If they dont move just continue the pick to 1B?

Originally Posted by parrothead

Actually thinking about this, whats interesting is for a RHP, in the younger divisions of tourney ball, where they steal 2B on seemingly every pitch when on first a righty could in theory do something similar?

So knowing a runner is going, RHP on mound.
* RHP in stretch, left leg goes up to balance point, he swings it around and throws to 2B.
- If runner didnt steal, its a balk obviously, stepping to unoccupied base.
- If the runner is going, he is making a play on the runner?

You're not the first person to think of this. It doesn't work very well in practice.

These are basically running a pick that steps to 2B with a runner at 1B, which for years I always thought would be a balk,

You're welcome.

[john5396]

The risk in coaching a lefty to do as you suggest is that the pitcher will balk by not completing the motion in a continuous motion. The safer play is to just continue with the called pickoff to first and count on the relay getting to 2B in time.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Yes but the coaching strategy is different, a lot of teams/baserunner philosophy is as soon as the lefty moves, they go.

That's stupid. Really stupid.

[parrothead]

Well on a straight steal a lot of times, the rule of thumb is "no jump no go" and with a lefty waiting to see if they go home a lot of times results in bad jumps, which is why some teams steal with a lefty is on first movement and you see this all the way up to the bigs, where they just go when P lifts his leg either hoping to guess right or hoping to beat the exchange from pick to 1B to SS.

As for the risk of a balk, the one area I would use it is in youth ages where they are stealing, like 9U-11U travel, where the catchers rarely throw out the runners and the runners go on every pitch from 1-2. So its pretty much a given if they are gonna go, and if by some miracle they dont go and you balk? Oh well, he was likely gonna steal anyway.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Well on a straight steal a lot of times, the rule of thumb is "no jump no go" and with a lefty waiting to see if they go home a lot of times results in bad jumps, which is why some teams steal with a lefty is on first movement and you see this all the way up to the bigs, where they just go when P lifts his leg either hoping to guess right or hoping to beat the exchange from pick to 1B to SS.

As for the risk of a balk, the one area I would use it is in youth ages where they are stealing, like 9U-11U travel, where the catchers rarely throw out the runners and the runners go on every pitch from 1-2. So its pretty much a given if they are gonna go, and if by some miracle they dont go and you balk? Oh well, he was likely gonna steal anyway.

If they know you are gong to go on first move you'll get picked off every time.

[SNIPERBBB]

Are you sure you are not confusing righty pitcher with a left? Righty with a runner on first, you go on a straight steal with the left foot moving. Lefty you have to wait till the right foot goes toward the plate or you are dead, dead, dead.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Are you sure you are not confusing righty pitcher with a left? Righty with a runner on first, you go on a straight steal with the left foot moving. Lefty you have to wait till the right foot goes toward the plate or you are dead, dead, dead.

Righty can step to 1B also.

[SNIPERBBB]

Not easily.