Offer or Not

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bigda65

Matt,
My two cents, this pitch is borderline in the batters box = benefit of the doubt goes to the batter.

But for discussion sake, take the pitch completely out of the equation, lets say we put it at eye level directly above the plate, would you still judge an offer?

Yes. There is no benefit of the doubt...he was still swinging. This is one criterion where I do find it black-and-white--if the batter is still going when the pitch hits him, it is an offer.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by robbie

A view we DO have:
Pretend Plate Ump only called dead ball - go to first. Defense appeals to Base Ump. Are you really saying you would have ruled a swing?

If I could see the same thing I saw on replay, then yes.

The view behind the mound in real-time, I was uncertain (thus, I would have HBP.)

[jicecone]

Borderline on the swing but, either way he made it to first and PU did a good job selling the call. Then again I had the pleasure of watching the replay 3 times. PU made a decision and that was that.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JJ

I watched it live and, at the time, my first thought was "no swing". After watching the replay multiple times, I still have no swing. At the time it happened I commented to the folks I was watching with that "the umpire just really screwed up, but he sold it well".
I was taught in umpire school years ago that ultimately we are supposed to judge if the batter actually offered at the pitch. Many years later the NCAA added the caveat of "did the barrel of the bat pass the front hip"? Yes, this is Little League (not pro ball or NCAA), but from my perspective, I still have no swing.

JJ

The one thing that you forgot from umpiring school is to never comment about another umpire's call to a group of non-umpires and therefore do not throw your brother umpire under the bus!

MTD, Sr.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JJ

I watched it live and, at the time, my first thought was "no swing". After watching the replay multiple times, I still have no swing. At the time it happened I commented to the folks I was watching with that "the umpire just really screwed up, but he sold it well".
I was taught in umpire school years ago that ultimately we are supposed to judge if the batter actually offered at the pitch. Many years later the NCAA added the caveat of "did the barrel of the bat pass the front hip"? Yes, this is Little League (not pro ball or NCAA), but from my perspective, I still have no swing.

JJ

That is not what NCAA means. What that means is that if the barrel passed the hip, it is by definition a swing. It can be a swing even if it doesn't.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by robbie

A view we DO have:
Pretend Plate Ump only called dead ball - go to first. Defense appeals to Base Ump. Are you really saying you would have ruled a swing?

Absolutely! Look at the video in real time. The only reason the batter was HBP was because he chose to attempt a swing. Yes, he pulled back and if he was never hit, there would have been no swing. But by attempting, he moved his arm into the pitch and that is how I would have ruled it.

[bigda65]

So he pulled back, which I think you agree that was no offer, but the pitch hit him, so now it is an offer?
So if the pitch didn't hit him, you would have had ball 4 and no offer?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Absolutely! Look at the video in real time. The only reason the batter was HBP was because he chose to attempt a swing. Yes, he pulled back and if he was never hit, there would have been no swing. But by attempting, he moved his arm into the pitch and that is how I would have ruled it.

Originally Posted by bigda65

So he pulled back, which I think you agree that was no offer, but the pitch hit him, so now it is an offer?
So if the pitch didn't hit him, you would have had ball 4 and no offer?

I'm really not sure why this discussion is occurring. He never pulled back.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'm really not sure why this discussion is occurring. He never pulled back.

Because we have people that don't understand how to umpire yet. They think that relying on replays, intuition and announcers is the way to do it, instead of officiating on what happened. They'll give up soon.

[Rich]

5 days later, he still hasn't offered.

[bigda65]

So far we have,

Yes.. Ozzy, Matt, Mark T. (I think yes), CT1 (I think yes)


No.. Robbie, Mbilica, Bigda, Rich, JJ.

And Im not sure about Bob J and Jicecone

5 to 4, split decision, so I guess we will agree to disagree.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bigda65

So far we have,

Yes.. Ozzy, Matt, Mark T. (I think yes), CT1 (I think yes)


No.. Robbie, Mbilica, Bigda, Rich, JJ.

And Im not sure about Bob J and Jicecone

5 to 4, split decision, so I guess we will agree to disagree.

I am yes, and Junior also says yes.

MTD, Sr.

[Welpe]

Late to the party but I don't have an offer either.

[MD Longhorn]

I'm a little late to this too ... but I have no swing.

And honestly ... I don't even have CLOSE to a swing and I'm a little stunned that at least one person posting here that my brain automatically registers as "always right" when he has something to say ... is calling this a swing.

One thing that does bother me though ... on both sides of the argument --- there's a lot of completely irrelevant elements being used to justify peoples calls (both ways).

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The one thing that you forgot from umpiring school is to never comment about another umpire's call to a group of non-umpires and therefore do not throw your brother umpire under the bus!

MTD, Sr.

Gee, I'm so sorry. I thought we were posting opinions of what we saw. I'll never do it again.