On the shot or not

[Rob1968]

2-man crew, I'm Lead, opposite from table side: A1 drives my side of the lane, parallel on the edge of the lane, after A1 gathers, fouled by B1, and the ball is released so late that it hits the back of the backboard. I call the foul and award 2 shots.
The opposing coach voices,"How can that be on the shot?! It hit the back of the board. It can't be a legit shot!"
I chose to ignore his comment. We proceeded with the free throws. There was no further comment from the coach.
What would you have responded? I thought that my non-response was best, in this instance.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

What would you have responded? I thought that my non-response was best, in this instance.

"Continuous motion, coach."
If anything.
Sounds like your silence may have sufficed.
Your description matched the definition of continuous motion quite well (4-11).
That said, a coach, in that situation, isn't so much concerned whether or not you got the rule right, only that the situation didn't go in his/her favor.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

2-man crew, I'm Lead, opposite from table side: A1 drives my side of the lane, parallel on the edge of the lane, after A1 gathers, fouled by B1, and the ball is released so late that it hits the back of the backboard. I call the foul and award 2 shots.
The opposing coach voices,"How can that be on the shot?! It hit the back of the board. It can't be a legit shot!"
I chose to ignore his comment. We proceeded with the free throws. There was no further comment from the coach.
What would you have responded? I thought that my non-response was best, in this instance.

"During the shooting motion, coach."

[JRutledge]

"Anytime the player gathers the ball after a dribble, it is a shot."

Peace

[Adam]

Had a kid try the "this isn't the NBA" line on me this summer. When I briefly told him the rule, he turned to his teammate as he headed to line up for the FT, "We're in the NBA today, guys."

I stopped him there, told him to knock it off. "I was talking to my teammate."
"No, you were talking to me through your teammate."

[stiffler3492]

I think your silence is perfect here. His comment about the ball hitting the backboard is complete ignorance to the rule. You got it right, you and your partner know it, and that should be good enough.

[Adam]

As for the OP, I agree that in this case, silence is best. It's like a coach asking how you can have his player commit an OOB violation when he didn't have possession.

It's a dumb question.

[Jarm]

Anytime a player gathers and is fouled results in free throws.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

2-man crew, I'm Lead, opposite from table side: A1 drives my side of the lane, parallel on the edge of the lane, after A1 gathers, fouled by B1, and the ball is released so late that it hits the back of the backboard. I call the foul and award 2 shots.
The opposing coach voices,"How can that be on the shot?! It hit the back of the board. It can't be a legit shot!"
I chose to ignore his comment. We proceeded with the free throws. There was no further comment from the coach.
What would you have responded? I thought that my non-response was best, in this instance.

'Coach, just because it hit the back of the backboard doesn't mean the player wasn't taking a shot."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

"Anytime the player gathers the ball after a dribble, it is a shot."

How do players ever throw a pass in the games which you officiate?

Originally Posted by Jarm

Anytime a player gathers and is fouled results in free throws.

You are new, so you will learn that this is a gray area, but what you wrote isn't accurate. The start of the act of shooting does not equate to the end of the dribble. The official needs to see some motion that indicates throwing for goal. (That can include pivoting movement.)

My point is that there needs to be more than just gathering the ball after the dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How do players ever throw a pass in the games which you officiate?


You are new, so you will learn that this is a gray area, but what you wrote isn't accurate. The start of the act of shooting does not equate to the end of the dribble. The official needs to see some motion that indicates throwing for goal. (That can include pivoting movement.)

My point is that there needs to be more than just gathering the ball after the dribble.

True, but if there is such indication, the shooting motion likely will have started at the gather.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

True, but if there is such indication, the shooting motion likely will have started at the gather.

We can have a nice debate about this and likely not come to a consensus, but I'll post the text of the rule and give my opinion of what it means.


Rule 4

SECTION 41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP

ART. 1 . . .

The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try

or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.

ART. 2 . . .

A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal

when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

ART. 3 . . .

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

So it is a judgment call by rule and what exactly is meant by "motion which habitually precedes the release"?

Obviously the ball must be gathered prior to the release, but that doesn't equate to throwing for goal as a player must also gather the ball to pass it. I want to see a little more. I desire to see the players arms/hands do something which indicates the desire to shoot. On a jumpshot, I look for the hand to come under the ball as wrist is cocked back to shoot. On a layup or scoop shot near the basket, I look for upward movement of the arms towards the basket.

Both of those actions are very different from the mere grasping of the ball with the hands in ending a dribble. Usually that is done with the palms downward towards the floor. Shooting is done with a palm pointing upward.

These aren't all encompassing and to me are only indicators of a try, but they are also more informative, and I believe more correct per the rules, than simply looking for a gathering of the ball.

I'm not going to award FTs to a player who is driving through the lane with the ball safely tucked away in his arms and belly like a football running back when the opponent fouls him.

Now Snaqs, what are your thoughts?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How do players ever throw a pass in the games which you officiate?

I think I have been officiating long enough to know when a player might be shooting a shot and passing a ball. But if the two things are not clear, then I will default to the shot. If they do something like at the last minute try to throw a pass it is a pass and not a shooting foul. And that action is usually rare and rarely happens.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are new, so you will learn that this is a gray area, but what you wrote isn't accurate. The start of the act of shooting does not equate to the end of the dribble. The official needs to see some motion that indicates throwing for goal. (That can include pivoting movement.)

My point is that there needs to be more than just gathering the ball after the dribble.

And some things are philosophies. I believe and was taught early on in my career by some that officiating is like three legs. One leg is rules knowledge. Another leg is mechanics and the final leg is philosophy.

The "gather" is a philosophy that a lot of people subscribe to and will continue to subscribe to despite this conversation or your reference or interpretation of the rule. There have also have even been visual interpretations from the NF on this issue in their S&I Rulebook.

Now maybe for you this does not suffice and I am OK with that feeling you have. But the reason that people use philosophies is so that they are consistent in their application of a rule and sometimes with their judgment.

Forgive me but after working about 13 games in two days I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket. What often officials do is to not award shots because the player did not get off the floor, which you have officials say, "On the floor" as their justification for not ruling that a player is in the act of shooting.

Now this term I used is used by many at higher levels. If is not your understanding again, I am OK with that feeling. But there are no rules that are specific to what a habitual motion entails. But it seems like you cannot make that motion until you start to gather the basketball in an attempt to shoot the basketball.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

After working about 13 games in two days I cannot think of a single time where someone shot the ball and did not first "gather" the ball and move forward towards the basket.

Nitpicking for the newbies.

No taps? In thirteen games? Unless prehistoric rules are being used (that will get Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s attention), a player fouled in the act of tapping is treated the same as if he was fouled in the act of shooting, and is awarded free throws. No "gather" on a tap.

4-42-6: A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal.

Just want to clear this up for the newbies. I am certain that JRutledge knows the rule.

[Freddy]

What allowance, if any, does 4-11, continuous motion, permit that is not covered by 4-44, act of shooting?