Clock Improperly Starts-Throw In Spot

[Indianaref]

College has addressed this issue and requires the throw in returns to the original spot. However, in High School, the only thing I could find is an old interpretation that involves the player actually touching the ball, ending the throw in. Nothing found when the throw in never actually ends. What about if the ball actually crosses mid court before official sounded his whistle? My thought was we would go to one of the 4 spots and correct the time on clock.

[JRutledge]

Where does it say in college that the ball must go back to the original spot? I ask this question because I had a similar situation happen years ago like this, and I got different answers as to what to do.

In a high school game, just put the ball where it was touched and take some time off the clock. At most a second or maybe .3, especially with this being the visiting team that would be penalized.

Peace

[Indianaref]

Jeff, the whistle is blown dead before the ball is touched.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Jeff, the whistle is blown dead before the ball is touched.

OK, but that is not exactly what I am asking. You said the NCAA addressed this, so where does it reference that?

Peace

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, but that is not exactly what I am asking. You said the NCAA addressed this, so where does it reference that?

Peace

I am going by this post, have yet to find the rule reference Ncaa
Post #19 by Nevadaref. https://forum.officiating.com/basket...-too-soon.html

[bucky]

In this case, the official improperly started the clock. I hate to see a team penalized, or have an advantage wiped away, when an official makes a mistake.

On another note, and maybe for a separate thread...why do officials, mostly in college/NBA, have to touch each other during a conference? Is that a requirement? lol

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

I am going by this post, have yet to find the rule reference Ncaa
Post #19 by Nevadaref. https://forum.officiating.com/basket...-too-soon.html

I am not saying you are wrong, but this conversation was some years ago. Almost 20 years ago, we have had since then replay and other interpretations to deal with these situations. If the ball is touched, there has been a rule in place to address how much we take off the clock at the very least. Now, if the ball is not touched, I agree that you probably go back to the original spot. I just like references to know if that is the case. I do not believe in the NF level, there is no clear situation. People focus on definite knowledge IMO as a crutch for everything. To me this is not clearly stated, but I would likely take something off the clock and wait for a touch if there is that much time on the clock.

Peace

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not saying you are wrong, but this conversation was some years ago. Almost 20 years ago, we have had since then replay and other interpretations to deal with these situations. If the ball is touched, there has been a rule in place to address how much we take off the clock at the very least. Now, if the ball is not touched, I agree that you probably go back to the original spot. I just like references to know if that is the case. I do not believe in the NF level, there is no clear situation. People focus on definite knowledge IMO as a crutch for everything. To me this is not clearly stated, but I would likely take something off the clock and wait for a touch if there is that much time on the clock.

Peace

What I guess I was really getting at, what if the ball crossed mid-court and you or your partner blew the whistle. The coach could have an argument that the ball should be at the 28' front court. 20 years ago yes but couldn't find anything else. And your correct, the Fed is not going to have definite answers for everything, we have to think for ourselves.

[BillyMac]

5-10-1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has*definite*information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

5-10-2 If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

I believe that this (below) may be the only interpretation where officials are allowed to change the game clock without any type of "definite knowledge" (definite knowledge, a visual, or non-visual count).

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5-10-1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has*definite*information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

5-10-2 If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

I believe that this (below) may be the only interpretation where officials are allowed to change the game clock without any type of "definite knowledge" (definite knowledge, a visual, or non-visual count).

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

This is all about throw-in spot. Whether we go back to original spot or a new spot. Timing is not my question

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

This is all about throw-in spot. Whether we go back to original spot or a new spot. Timing is not my question

A few posts touched on some timing issues.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

... why do officials, mostly in college/NBA, have to touch each other during a conference? Is that a requirement?

Reminds me of this.

"Tail Light Tap"
A classic police move that looks like a casual "tap" but actually serves a very specific, tactical purpose. It’s a mix of old-school forensic evidence and modern safety. Here is why officers touch the back of a vehicle during a stop:
1. Leaving Fingerprint Evidence
This is the primary reason. By touching the trunk or the rear light assembly, the officer leaves their fingerprints on the vehicle.
The Logic: If the traffic stop goes sideways and the driver flees or the officer is harmed, investigators can link that specific vehicle to the scene using the physical prints left behind.
The Backup: Even with modern dashcams and bodycams, physical evidence remains a powerful "plan B."
2. Ensuring the Trunk is Latched
Officers often press down or check the seal of the trunk. They are looking to ensure that no one is hiding inside the trunk waiting to jump out and ambush them once they reach the driver’s window. It’s a quick safety check to make sure the trunk is fully closed and locked.
3. The Element of Surprise
The "tap" can sometimes startle a driver who is nervous or distracted (perhaps trying to hide something). The sound of the tap on the rear of the car often causes the driver to look in the rearview mirror, giving the officer a split second to observe their facial expressions or see if they are reaching for something under the seat.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

College has addressed this issue and requires the throw in returns to the original spot. However, in High School, the only thing I could find is an old interpretation that involves the player actually touching the ball, ending the throw in. Nothing found when the throw in never actually ends. What about if the ball actually crosses mid court before official sounded his whistle? My thought was we would go to one of the 4 spots and correct the time on clock.

There are NO! Let me repeat myself: There are NO! 'do overs' in NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Basketball Rules! End of the discussion!

This topic has been discussed ad nauseum many times in this Forum and an Advanced Search for this topic and my name will bring up every one of these discussions some of which are almost twenty years old.

MTD, Sr.

P.S.: This is not the Men's Basketball Gold Medal Game in the 1972 Summer Olympiad!

P.P.S.: Tim Cloughery is the son of Youngstown State University alum and retired ACC Coordinator of Men's Basketball Officials, John Clougherty. Go Penguins!!

[BillyMac]

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

There are NO! Let me repeat myself: There are NO! 'do overs' in NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Basketball Rules! End of the discussion!

This situation from 25-26 interpretations says to return ball to original throw in spot.

SITUATION 5 (Inadvertent Whistle): During a designated-spot throw-in by Team A in its frontcourt, the covering official inadvertently blows the whistle before the throw-in is: (a) completed (legally touched by another player inbounds) (b) controlled by a player on the court after it was deflected by B1. In (a), the ball is returned to Team A for a throw-in at the original designated spot using the point of interruption (POI) procedure. If, instead of an inadvertent whistle, the stoppage had resulted from another POI situation — such as a double foul or simultaneous foul during the throw-in — the same ruling would apply. Team A would retain the ball for a throw-in from the original throw-in spot. In (b), Team A maintains control of the ball and will be awarded a throw-in at one of the four designated spots nearest where the ball was located when the inadvertent whistle occurred. If, instead of an inadvertent whistle, the stoppage had resulted from another POI situation — such as a double foul or simultaneous foul— the same ruling would apply. RULING: Correct procedure. COMMENT: In any situation where play is interrupted without clear team control — whether by inadvertent whistle, double foul or simultaneous foul — officials return the ball to the team that was in control at the point of interruption. On a throwin, team control begins at disposal and continues until there is player control by either team on the court. Therefore, Team A maintains its throw-in privilege in each of these scenarios. (4-36-1; 4-36- 2a, b; 7-5-2)