How to resume after clock starts during throw-in that is untouched.

[Afrosheen]

I’ve had multiple scenarios now where the clock started prematurely. Now the concern that I have is where to resume play? At where the ball was located when the clock malfunction was identified or at the original spot of the throw-in?

I can’t find any material on this. I’m wondering if say the play is an alley-oop with three seconds left and the throw-in is from the sideline. Clock starts without anyone touching it and the only thing that happens is that the ball bounces off the backboard untouched and then bounces out of bounds on the end line. Where would the play be resumed from?

Or another play would be the ball is rolled in from the end line in the backcourt. The ball rolls into the front court and then you find out the clock started prematurely. Where would the throw-in be located?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I’ve had multiple scenarios now where the clock started prematurely. Now the concern that I have is where to resume play? At where the ball was located when the clock malfunction was identified or at the original spot of the throw-in?

I can’t find any material on this. I’m wondering if say the play is an alley-oop with three seconds left and the throw-in is from the sideline. Clock starts without anyone touching it and the only thing that happens is that the ball bounces off the backboard untouched and then bounces out of bounds on the end line. Where would the play be resumed from?

Or another play would be the ball is rolled in from the end line in the backcourt. The ball rolls into the front court and then you find out the clock started prematurely. Where would the throw-in be located?

If the throw-in hasn't ended, re-do the throw-in.

If it has ended, restart from where the ball is when play is stopped.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I’m wondering if say the play is an alley-oop with three seconds left and the throw-in is from the sideline. Clock starts without anyone touching it and the only thing that happens is that the ball bounces off the backboard untouched and then bounces out of bounds on the end line. Where would the play be resumed from?

This is a throwin violation, so it goes back to the original throwin spot.

7-6-2: … The throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.
PENALTY: (Section 2) Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.

With definite knowledge, which you seem to have, reset the game clock to three seconds.

5-10: ART. 1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
ART. 2 If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Or another play would be the ball is rolled in from the end line in the backcourt. The ball rolls into the front court and then you find out the clock started prematurely. Where would the throw-in be located?

Point of interruption (one of four "magic" spots).

Although technically not a correctable error (although it's an error, and it's correctable), I'm pretty sure that 2-10-6 would apply:

2-10-6: If an error is corrected, play must be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error …

Use definite knowledge, a visual, or non-visual count, to correct the game clock.

5-10: ART. 1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
ART. 2 If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I’ve had multiple scenarios now where the clock started prematurely. Now the concern that I have is where to resume play? At where the ball was located when the clock malfunction was identified or at the original spot of the throw-in?

I can’t find any material on this. I’m wondering if say Situation #1: the play is an alley-oop with three seconds left and the throw-in is from the sideline. Clock starts without anyone touching it and the only thing that happens is that the ball bounces off the backboard untouched and then bounces out of bounds on the end line. Where would the play be resumed from?

Or another play would be Situation #2: the ball is rolled in from the end line in the backcourt. The ball rolls into the front court and then you find out the clock started prematurely. Where would the throw-in be located?

The are no "do overs" in NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Basketball therefore there are no "do overs" in either Throw-in situation that you have presented.

Situation #1: Assuming that it was Team A that had the Ball for a Throw-in. Team A has committed a Throw-in Violation.
The Ball is put back into Play with Team B being awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in on the End Line in its Back Court where the Ball went Out of Bounds. The Game Clock is reset to 0:03.0 because per Rule that is the only Definite Time known by the Game Officials.

Situation #2: Assuming that it was Team A that had the Ball for a Throw-in. The Ball is put back into Play with Team A being awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in in its Front Court on the Boundary Line nearest where the Ball was when the Game Officials stopped play. The Game Clock is reset to 0:03.0 because per Rule that is the only Definite Time known by the Game Officials.

See the Thread in the Forum that has previously these Situations: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...onds-left.html

Author's editing at Dec. 15/Fri.(12:22amEST), 2023: In Situation #1: Additions are Green and deletions are Red.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...Situation #2: Assuming that it was Team A that had the Ball for a Throw-in. The Ball is put back into Play with Team A being awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in in its Front Court on the Boundary Line nearest where the Ball was when the Game Officials stopped play ...

At one of four "magic" spots.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The are no "do overs" in NFHS ...

That ship has now passed.

2023-24 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 5: An official administers a throw-in to Team A, when the throw-in should have been given to Team B. A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and B2 knocks the ball loose. While the ball is loose, the official recognizes their mistake, whistles and awards the ball to Team B for a throw-in from the same spot. RULING: Correct procedure. COMMENT: A loose ball does not change the status of the ball as it is still in Team A’s control. The mistake can be corrected until the status of the ball changes. The clock should be reset to the time remaining when the throw-in was made by Team A. (7-6-6)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Point of interruption (one of four "magic" spots).

Although technically not a correctable error (although it's an error, and it's correctable), I'm pretty sure that 2-10-6 would apply:

2-10-6: If an error is corrected, play must be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error …

Use definite knowledge, a visual, or non-visual count, to correct the game clock.

5-10: ART. 1 The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
ART. 2 If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

Are you assuming that A touched the ball at some point during this?

As I read the OP, no one inbounds had touched the ball when the referee stopped play because the clock had improperly started.the

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

... the ball is rolled in from the end line in the backcourt. The ball rolls into the front court and then you find out the clock started prematurely. Where would the throw-in be located?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Are you assuming that A touched the ball at some point during this?

Good catch.

Yes I did assume, when such information wasn't presented.

Thanks.

So since the throwin didn't end the new throwin would go back to the original throwin spot, which would also be the the point of interruption according to 4-4-3.

4-4-3: A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Is "flight" treated the same as a roll?

I assume so.

Wait.

I believe so.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-4-3: A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Is "flight" treated the same as a roll?

I assume so.

Wait.

I believe so.

"In flight" is not treated the same as a roll.

But, it doesn't matter.

The reference you want is 4-36-2b (slightly edited):

Play shall be resumed by.... A throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

4-36-2b (slightly edited): Play shall be resumed by.... A throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity.

I almost used this reference, but decided to try for a better one.

Are you calling this an inadvertent whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, or a correctable error?

It's not an inadvertent whistle, it was an advertent whistle.

It's a timing error, an error, and often correctable, but not a correctable error.

It's an interrupted game, but not like the interrupted game in 5-4-3 (interrupted because of events beyond the control of the responsible administrative authorities).

But I can go along with interrupted game based on purpose and intent.

But doesn't one still need 4-4-3 to determine the throwin spot?

4-4-3: A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

[bob jenkins]

Ball location *can* be important during POI, but not when the POI is during a FT or a throw-in.

[Indianaref]

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

I believe that this may be the only interpretation where officials are allowed to change the game clock without any type of "definite knowledge" (definite knowledge, a visual, or non-visual count).

Estimation is not "definite knowledge".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe that this may be the only interpretation where officials are allowed to change the game clock without any type of "definite knowledge" (definite knowledge, a visual, or non-visual count).

Estimation is not "definite knowledge".

Billy:

I do not have a problem with Mary Struckhoff's Ruling in Situation 11 with one exception and that being Situation 11c: The Official has definite knowledge that the Game Clock showed 0:03.0 seconds when the Ball was Placed at the Disposal of A1. Per NFHS Rules there is absolutely no way that an Official can set the Game Clock to any other time than 0:03.0.

MTD, Sr.