Need 2 Rulings!

[TheTedP]

I am NOT an official, but STILL playing regulary at 46. Can you guys opine on the following?
1. Player 1 leaves the court intentionally for seconds, then returns. Player 2 sees player 1 returning and passes the ball BEFORE player 1 is back on the court. Player 1 re-establishes position on court while ball is in air, then catches pass. Is this allowed?

2. Player 1 is fakes an 8 foot shot and player 2 turns for rebound, now with back against player 1. Player 1 drives and runs into player 2's back, knocking player 2 down. Is this charging? The argument I heard from ref was one cannot charge into another's back, only facing. This seems absurd, if true.

Thanks, I really enjoy reading your forums!

[TRef21]

1. I would say violation. If you saw this and the act was intentional, you should have whistled it a violation to prevent this from happening.

2. I would penalize player 1. Inital guarding position has be establised and a player may turn to absorb the contact. In this case I would give player 2 the benefit of the doubt and go offense.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by TRef21

1. I would say violation. If you saw this and the act was intentional, you should have whistled it a violation to prevent this from happening.

2. I would penalize player 1. Inital guarding position has be establised and a player may turn to absorb the contact. In this case I would give player 2 the benefit of the doubt and go offense.

Ditto if what you describe is objective. You could be casting the description in a way that biases the imagination. A charge can take place into a player's back, however, and the first sounds like an obvious violation.

[TheTedP]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Ditto if what you describe is objective. You could be casting the description in a way that biases the imagination. A charge can take place into a player's back, however, and the first sounds like an obvious violation.

For objectivity; Ref quoted "a player cannot be charged in the back even if he is set"


In scenario 1, there was no disagreement in the accuracy of what I described, it was just a matter of whether someone else had to touch the ball first (before P1). From what I gather by both responses so far, it does not matter that the player had re-established himself in bounds, someone else DID need to touch the ball first.

Thank you again for your responses!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TheTedP

I am NOT an official, but STILL playing regulary at 46. Can you guys opine on the following?
1. Player 1 leaves the court intentionally for seconds, then returns. Player 2 sees player 1 returning and passes the ball BEFORE player 1 is back on the court. Player 1 re-establishes position on court while ball is in air, then catches pass. Is this allowed?

No, it is NOT allowed.

NFHS: immediate violation when the player goes out of bounds.
9-3-2 . . . A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason.
PENALTY: (Section 3) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception 4)

NCAA: violation when the player is the first to touch the ball upon returning


RULE 9, Section 4. Player Out of Bounds
Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his/her own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation.
a. A violation has not been committed when a player, who steps out of bounds as permitted by Rule 7-5.8.a, does not receive the pass along the endline by a teammate and is the first to touch the ball after his or her return to the playing court.

A.R. 181.
Team A sets a double screen for A1, who, in attempting to come across the free-throw lane, is legally obstructed by offensive and defensive players so that A1 leaves the playing court under the basket, circles around, returns to the playing court and then is the first to receive the ball. RULING: A violation has been committed by A1 for leaving the playing court and then becoming the first player to touch the ball upon return.

Originally Posted by TheTedP

2. Player 1 is fakes an 8 foot shot and player 2 turns for rebound, now with back against player 1. Player 1 drives and runs into player 2's back, knocking player 2 down. Is this charging? The argument I heard from ref was one cannot charge into another's back, only facing. This seems absurd, if true.

Thanks, I really enjoy reading your forums!

We just discussed this play, so I'll refer you to that recent thread. I will add that the official who told you that is wrong.

How do you call this?

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by TheTedP

For objectivity; Ref quoted "a player cannot be charged in the back even if he is set"


In scenario 1, there was no disagreement in the accuracy of what I described, it was just a matter of whether someone else had to touch the ball first (before P1). From what I gather by both responses so far, it does not matter that the player had re-established himself in bounds, someone else DID need to touch the ball first.

Thank you again for your responses!

You are mixing two situations. The violation that SHOULD have been called is for intentionally leaving the court. This should draw a whistle as soon as the player leaves the court.
The other aspect you are inferring improperly is the old saw that once a player is OOB, another player must touch or a violation results. This is not the case. Once a player leaves the court (legally), he may be first to touch provided he has established himself inbounds.

Just couldn't let you go away with that mistaken impression.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by justacoach

You are mixing two situations. The violation that SHOULD have been called is for intentionally leaving the court. This should draw a whistle as soon as the player leaves the court.

That is the high school rule only. I gave the NCAA rule above because we don't know what set of rules you are using.

Originally Posted by justacoach

The other aspect you are inferring improperly is the old saw that once a player is OOB, another player must touch or a violation results. This is not the case. Once a player leaves the court (legally), he may be first to touch provided he has established himself inbounds.

Just couldn't let you go away with that mistaken impression.

That is true for both NFHS and NCAA as long as the player is legally out of bounds or is out for an authorized reason. Leaving to get around a defender or to deceive the opponent are not legal.

[shave-tail]

Originally Posted by TheTedP

I am NOT an official, but STILL playing regulary at 46. Can you guys opine on the following?
1. Player 1 leaves the court intentionally for seconds, then returns. Player 2 sees player 1 returning and passes the ball BEFORE player 1 is back on the court. Player 1 re-establishes position on court while ball is in air, then catches pass. Is this allowed?

2. Player 1 is fakes an 8 foot shot and player 2 turns for rebound, now with back against player 1. Player 1 drives and runs into player 2's back, knocking player 2 down. Is this charging? The argument I heard from ref was one cannot charge into another's back, only facing. This seems absurd, if true.

Thanks, I really enjoy reading your forums!

Your first question has a couple of things going on. I would need to know why he intentionally left the court, i.e. a player attempting to save a ball from going out of bounds would count as this, but I would never call this a violation (the player knew the second he jumped he was leaving the court). Now if the player was being "tricky" so the defense would lose track of him then I would call the violation.

If the officials did not call this a violation (intentionally leaving the court) then the pass and catch was legal.

Your second question this would be a common foul on the offense. While the defender did not have legal guarding position he still has the right to his spot on the floor.

[TheTedP]

Player left court as he ran back on offense, off court by3-4 feet for length of about 6-8 feet.
There was NO call for leaving the court.

[Nevadaref]

Ted,
My references are from the 2006-07 NFHS Rules Book and the 2006-07 NCAA Rules Book. They are current.

It hinges upon why the player was OOB. If it was for a legal reason, then he can come back in and be the first to touch the ball without penalty in both NFHS and NCAA. However, if the going OOB was not legal, then I already gave you the proper rulings.

Here are the play rulings for legally being OOB and returning and getting the ball:
NCAA:
RULE 7, Section 1, Article 1

A.R. 143.

A1 blocks a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the floor inbounds but A1, who is off balance, falls outside the end line. A1 returns, secures control of the ball, and dribbles. RULING: Legal. A1 has not left the playing court voluntarily and was not in control of the ball when leaving the playing court. This situation is similar to one in which A1 makes a try from under the basket and momentum carries A1 off the playing court. The try is unsuccessful, and A1 comes onto the playing court and regains control of the ball.

NFHS:

7.1.1 SITUATION B: A1 blocks a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the floor inbounds, but A1, who is off balance, steps off the court. A1 returns inbounds, secures control of the ball and dribbles. RULING: Legal. A1 did not leave the court voluntarily and did not have control of the ball when he/she did. This situation is similar to one in which A1 makes a try from under the basket and momentum carries A1 off the court. If the try is unsuccessful, A1 may come back onto the court and regain control since A1 did not leave the court voluntarily and did not have control of the ball when he/she did.
7.1.1 SITUATION C: A1 blocks a pass near the sideline and the ball goes into A1's front court. A1's momentum carries him/her out of bounds. He/she immediately returns inbounds, secures control of the ball, dribbles, shoots, and scores. RULING: Legal. (4-35-1a; 7-1-2; 9-3)
7.1.1 SITUATION D: A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds; (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball; or (c) picks up the ball after returning to the court and then begins a dribble. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b). Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes the start of a dribble, dribbling a second time after picking up the ball is an illegal dribble violation. (4-15-5; 4-15-6d; 4-35; 9-5)

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ted,
My references are from the 2006-07 NFHS Rules Book and the 2006-07 NCAA Rules Book. They are current.

It hinges upon why the player was OOB. If it was for a legal reason, then he can come back in and be the first to touch the ball without penalty in both NFHS and NCAA. However, if the going OOB was not legal, then I already gave you the proper rulings.

Here are the play rulings for legally being OOB and returning and getting the ball:
NCAA:
RULE 7, Section 1, Article 1

A.R. 143.

A1 blocks a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the floor inbounds but A1, who is off balance, falls outside the end line. A1 returns, secures control of the ball, and dribbles. RULING: Legal. A1 has not left the playing court voluntarily and was not in control of the ball when leaving the playing court. This situation is similar to one in which A1 makes a try from under the basket and momentum carries A1 off the playing court. The try is unsuccessful, and A1 comes onto the playing court and regains control of the ball.

NFHS:

7.1.1 SITUATION B: A1 blocks a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the floor inbounds, but A1, who is off balance, steps off the court. A1 returns inbounds, secures control of the ball and dribbles. RULING: Legal. A1 did not leave the court voluntarily and did not have control of the ball when he/she did. This situation is similar to one in which A1 makes a try from under the basket and momentum carries A1 off the court. If the try is unsuccessful, A1 may come back onto the court and regain control since A1 did not leave the court voluntarily and did not have control of the ball when he/she did.
7.1.1 SITUATION C: A1 blocks a pass near the sideline and the ball goes into A1's front court. A1's momentum carries him/her out of bounds. He/she immediately returns inbounds, secures control of the ball, dribbles, shoots, and scores. RULING: Legal. (4-35-1a; 7-1-2; 9-3)
7.1.1 SITUATION D: A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds; (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball; or (c) picks up the ball after returning to the court and then begins a dribble. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b). Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes the start of a dribble, dribbling a second time after picking up the ball is an illegal dribble violation. (4-15-5; 4-15-6d; 4-35; 9-5)

Sounds correct to me. In NCAA you see those baseline screens set and the guy goes around out of out of bounds. If you notice you never see the ball being passed to the player you ran ob. Its passed in the post or some where else, so play on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheTedP

2. Player 1 is fakes an 8 foot shot and player 2 turns for rebound, now with back against player 1. Player 1 drives and runs into player 2's back, knocking player 2 down. Is this charging? The argument I heard from ref was one cannot charge into another's back, only facing. This seems absurd, if true.

Not true, the ref misunderstands the rules and the purpose of legal guarding position. If this player is standing still, it should have been a player control foul on player 1. Players with their back turned get pushed all the time on rebounds, and we make this call; there's nothing about having the ball that allows someone to push with impunity.

[deecee]

^^ i completly agree with the above correct answers ^^

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

^^ i completly agree with the above correct answers ^^

Me too, except for the one that is wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TRef21

2. I would penalize player 1. Inital guarding position has be established and a player may turn to absorb the contact. In this case I would give player 2 the benefit of the doubt and go offense.

Legal guarding position is completely irrelevant in this particular play. Forget LGP. LGP never has to be established on this particular play. Each player is entitled to their spot on the floor as long as that spot was legally attained. After legally attaining that spot, they can't be pushed off that spot from any angle. If the player with the ball runs down any defender who has a legal spot on the court, the only foul that could be called would be on the player charging.

Any offensive player, with or without the ball, can't simply run a defender down if that defender has attained their spot on the floor legally. LGP is only part of attaining a legal spot on the floor, and it isn't always relevant. Similarly, defensive players can't run offensive players over either if those offensive players have also attained a legal spot on the floor. It's either a foul or incidental contact if they do so.