Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[JTRICE]

http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm

See what you guys think about this.

[26 Year Gap]

Foul then whistle then buzzer then shot appears to be what the ruling is based upon.

[Adam]

Makes sense to me; I like it.

[Jurassic Referee]

I disagree with part of the ruling. What they did when they put a second back on the clock because of definite knowledge was correct--i.e. counting the basket and having 1 FT with 1 second on the clock and the teams lined up.

But...if they didn't have definite knowledge to put time back on the clock, then time ran out before the ball was in the air and the basket won't count. NFHS rule 6-7-6&7 & EXCEPTION(c). See the language in case book play 6.7SitC also- "The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does NOT expire before the ball is in flight". The rule cited- R5-6-2EXCEPTION3 is not relevant because that exception only refers to a ball being in flight before the horn, not after the horn. In that case, A1 will be awarded 2 FT's with no time on the clock and no one lined up on the lanes. That's exactly what was being discussed in the other thread.

[Adam]

In this situation, the only definite knowledge you have is that the shot was released before time should have expired, based on the fact that the whistle blew before the horn sounded. That’s enough knowledge to count the basket but not enough to put any time back on the clock.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

In this situation, the only definite knowledge you have is that the shot was released before time should have expired, based on the fact that the whistle blew before the horn sounded. That’s enough knowledge to count the basket but not enough to put any time back on the clock.

What if you see the clock as you blow the whistle and it does not read 00:00?

[BloggingRefGuy]

Then you have definite knowledge, and put the amount you could see on the clock. Right?

Any advice on how to have definite knowledge of how much time is on a clock counting down tenths of seconds? Those suckers move fast.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

In this situation, the only definite knowledge you have is that the shot was released before time should have expired, based on the fact that the whistle blew before the horn sounded. That’s enough knowledge to count the basket but not enough to put any time back on the clock.

Can you find a rule somewhere to back that up, and negate the specific language of the rules that I cited? A rule that says that you can count a basket even though the shot wasn't in the air when the horn went off?

If you can't put time back on the clock, by rule, then there isn't any rule extant that I know of that states you can just go ahead and ignore the horn. If you can find one, please cite it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

Then you have definite knowledge, and put the amount you could see on the clock. Right?

Any advice on how to have definite knowledge of how much time is on a clock counting down tenths of seconds? Those suckers move fast.

Youhput back exactly what you see back on the clock. If the first thing that you see is 0.3 seconds, then that's what put back on. If you're not sure, you can't put anything back on.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you can't put time back on the clock, by rule, then there isn't any rule extant that I know of that states you can just go ahead and ignore the horn. If you can find one, please cite it.

Agreed. Without definite knowledge, you cannot put time back on the clock or count the basket.

[Nevadaref]

I agree with JR and BktBallRef. The new ruling eliminating lag time would only come into play if the officials had definite knowledge of the exact time remaining and would then put that time on the clock and count the basket. Without that the basket cannot count. The elimination of lag time does not override the following still extant rulings.

The basket would count by the following rule if the try is released before the horn.

5-6 exception 3.
If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

However, by this case book play, which is still in the current book, the basket DOES NOT count if it comes after the horn and there is no obvious timing mistake.

5.6.2 SITUATION D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1's attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul? RULING: In (a) and (b), the two free throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-6-3 Exception; 6-7-7)

Can you find a rule somewhere to back that up, and negate the specific language of the rules that I cited? A rule that says that you can count a basket even though the shot wasn't in the air when the horn went off?

Wouldn't this fall under the section of continuous motion (NFHS 4.11.2), or does the horn negate the shot even when "...the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by PYRef

Wouldn't this fall under the section of continuous motion (NFHS 4.11.2), or does the horn negate the shot even when "...the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."?

6-7-6 The ball becomes dead when time expires for a quarter or extra period.


exception: article 6 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

Continuous motion does not allow a release after the horn.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by just another ref

6-7-6 The ball becomes dead when time expires for a quarter or extra period.


exception: article 6 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

Continuous motion does not allow a release after the horn.

Right.

A dead ball can never score. Supports what Jurassic and other said.

The elimination of lag time does not affect this rule in any way.

[btaylor64]

A hell of a topic here guys. I think this is one that the NFHS might have missed with the lag time being taken out. There seems to be evidence in the rulebook to put time back on the clock and count the basket or to not count the basket and give the free throws with no time remaining.

Personally, with lag time being eliminated I am going to count the basket if it goes and put at least .4 on the clock in almost all circumstances so the opposing team can have a catch and shoot if possible. You all might not think its right, but if I am the R that night and my partners are alright and maybe just maybe if they are not alright with it that is how I would do it. I am going to do what I think is right and fair for the kids, and sometimes what is right and fair to the kids might be something to the contrary of what I just said. Until I hear an official clarification of what the NFHS wants to do I am going to invoke elastic power.